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Old 10-25-2013, 02:35 PM   #181
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And yes...reasonable suspicion is if they see your weapon and it looks illegal. Possessing an illegal weapon is a crime. If you're carrying something that looks obviously illegal, you should expect to be stopped.

If I carry a bazooka would it be a violation for them to look at it since it looks illegal?
An officer of the law cannot legally assume you are committing a crime. Therefore he cannot do anything but have a voluntary conversation. The offers who stopped Mr Douche Bag were in the wrong and should be reprimanded in some way deemed appropriate by their CO.

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I'm pretty sure Zell just thinks that anything "scary looking" is something that "looks illegal". I'm not aware on his view of how "scary" illegal aliens may or may not be though.
I couldnt agree more
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:38 PM   #182
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Maybe to get attention (to normalize it), but he can't control other peoples "feelings" nor be responsible for it unless he's breaking the law. He's acting in a legal capacity, get over it.

lol, It's just clothes, get over it

Exposes your level of knowledge on subject. He took an AK47 rifle and fashioned it into an BATFE class firearm. It's an AK, definitely not a fake one. Didn't start as a "pistol".

Personally, I 100% disagree with this as kids might assume it's a toy. Although I disagree with his actions and STRONGLY disapprove of them... no law is being broken. Slippery slope to make things illegal because of a color...

You'd prefer he held it in his hand? 1, 4 or 7 point shoulder slings are the safest.

Attention seeking is the #1 method to bring awareness to a cause, issue or succeed in normalizing something. If more people carried guns around... maybe cops wouldn't jump to conclusions and shoot 13 year old children


No, not never, but simply walking in the park, not breaking any laws?
Firearm owners are not a protected class like age, race and gender. Investigate doesn't mean unlawful detention/arrest or cops jumping out of a car with a shotgun pointed at people just walking in the park

Back to my "normalization" effort suggestion
This is the best post so far
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:39 PM   #183
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He was 13. That makes him a child. Where's the confusion there?
And are you actually not sure if an adult is more dangerous than a child? Even with a weapon involved?
Please identify which of the numbered people are children, adults, men, and women. FYI, according to all the reports, the back of the "teenage" in this case was facing the officers until he started to turn while raising the muzzle of the "gun". Thus, until they had already decided to fire based on looking at the weapon rising towards them, the officers never saw a "child" or a "teenager" or a "grown-up". They saw a figure with what appeared to be an AK-47 (illegal in Cali for just about everyone) who disregarded their orders then began turning while raising the muzzle of the "gun" towards them.


P.s. my niece is a teenager and probably a lot more deadly with a rifle than a large percentage of the adult population in the U.S.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #184
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Maybe to get attention (to normalize it), but he can't control other peoples "feelings" nor be responsible for it unless he's breaking the law. He's acting in a legal capacity, get over it.

lol, It's just clothes, get over it

Exposes your level of knowledge on subject. He took an AK47 rifle and fashioned it into an BATFE class firearm. It's an AK, definitely not a fake one. Didn't start as a "pistol".

Personally, I 100% disagree with this as kids might assume it's a toy. Although I disagree with his actions and STRONGLY disapprove of them... no law is being broken. Slippery slope to make things illegal because of a color...

You'd prefer he held it in his hand? 1, 4 or 7 point shoulder slings are the safest.

Attention seeking is the #1 method to bring awareness to a cause, issue or succeed in normalizing something. If more people carried guns around... maybe cops wouldn't jump to conclusions and shoot 13 year old children


No, not never, but simply walking in the park, not breaking any laws?
Firearm owners are not a protected class like age, race and gender. Investigate doesn't mean unlawful detention/arrest or cops jumping out of a car with a shotgun pointed at people just walking in the park

Back to my "normalization" effort suggestion
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Please identify which of the numbered people are children, adults, men, and women. FYI, according to all the reports, the back of the "teenage" in this case was facing the officers until he started to turn while raising the muzzle of the "gun". Thus, until they had already decided to fire based on looking at the weapon rising towards them, the officers never saw a "child" or a "teenager" or a "grown-up". They saw a figure with what appeared to be an AK-47 (illegal in Cali for just about everyone) who disregarded their orders then began turning while raising the muzzle of the "gun" towards them.


P.s. my niece is a teenager and probably a lot more deadly with a rifle than a large percentage of the adult population in the U.S.
Lets not forget that an officer of the law can never assume you are committing a crime. They were in the wrong because the kid had a toy. They cannot just go assume he has a real one. That **** gets people killed.

Honestly they could have just left him alone. I see no reason to stop someone who is walking around with an AK whether its real or not. I wont assume its real if I am an officer in Cali because I wouldnt want to lose my job or maybe my life
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:46 PM   #185
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Is looking like an illegal alien grounds for stopping and questioning?
Actually, I personally think yes, you should. There is nothing wrong with profiling. Not profiling is a feel-good lib maneuver.

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I'm pretty sure Zell just thinks that anything "scary looking" is something that "looks illegal". I'm not aware on his view of how "scary" illegal aliens may or may not be though.
I guess no one should ever be stopped for doing something that looks suspicious or potentially walking around with something that looks to be illegal to have, because if you're a cop you should be well aware of what illegal weapons look like.

That's not "scary looking," that's "obviously illegal to possess," and there is nothing wrong with checking for that if it's in plain sight and out in the open - precisely what a cop does in any traffic stop.

Maybe we shouldn't pull cars over for having illegal parts on them because that would be profiling.

But we shouldn't do any of that that, that might make people feel bad . And in this day and age, everyone should feel good!

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An officer of the law cannot legally assume you are committing a crime. Therefore he cannot do anything but have a voluntary conversation. The offers who stopped Mr Douche Bag were in the wrong and should be reprimanded in some way deemed appropriate by their CO.
Keeping him for 2 hours? Yeah. They shouldn't have done that. But taking him seriously because he specifically wanted to look suspicious and threatening wearing military hardware and modifying his gun to look more suspicious than it needed to be? Nothing wrong with that.

To sit there and lie to yourself over and over that it's entirely normal for someone to walk around in public in military gear with a cumbersome rifle is asinine.

No normal person does that. People that do that are:

1. Trying to prove some bullshit point that no one really cares about
2. Literally trying to get cops pissed off so that they can get money
3. Are actually trying to kill people

Sorry, but the whole "LET'Z NOT PR0FILE GUYZ" thing needs to end. It's retarded, it's solely designed to make people feel better, and it's an absolutely ridiculous political tactic.

Outliers exist. Outliers are obvious. To pretend like they're not there is one big massive lie to only yourself.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:50 PM   #186
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Actually, I personally think yes, you should. There is nothing wrong with profiling. Not profiling is a feel-good lib maneuver.



I guess no one should ever be stopped for doing something that looks suspicious or potentially walking around with something that looks to be illegal to have, because if you're a cop you should be well aware of what illegal weapons look like.

That's not "scary looking," that's "obviously illegal to possess," and there is nothing wrong with checking for that if it's in plain sight and out in the open - precisely what a cop does in any traffic stop.

Maybe we shouldn't pull cars over for having illegal parts on them because that would be profiling.

But we shouldn't do any of that that, that might make people feel bad . And in this day and age, everyone should feel good!



Keeping him for 2 hours? Yeah. They shouldn't have done that. But taking him seriously because he specifically wanted to look suspicious and threatening wearing military hardware and modifying his gun to look more suspicious than it needed to be? Nothing wrong with that.

To sit there and lie to yourself over and over that it's entirely normal for someone to walk around in public in military gear with a cumbersome rifle is asinine.

No normal person does that. People that do that are:

1. Trying to prove some bullshit point that no one really cares about
2. Literally trying to get cops pissed off so that they can get money
3. Are actually trying to kill people

Sorry, but the whole "LET'Z NOT PR0FILE GUYZ" thing needs to end. It's retarded, it's solely designed to make people feel better, and it's an absolutely ridiculous political tactic.

Outliers exist. Outliers are obvious. To pretend like they're not there is one big massive lie to only yourself.
Living in Arizona is great. I dont open carry yet, but all my friends who are weapon enthusiasts love to open carry. We go to car meets with ARs and even a couple M4s. I have a friend who has straight up opened carried an M107 to lunch. Completely stupid to carry something so heavy, but its fun. Doing someone other people normally dont do is fun and excercising your rights means you get to keep them
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:56 PM   #187
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Lets not forget that an officer of the law can never assume you are committing a crime. They were in the wrong because the kid had a toy. They cannot just go assume he has a real one. That **** gets people killed.
You have said this numerous times. Can you provide something to back it up other than your own say-so?
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:59 PM   #188
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Living in Arizona is great. I dont open carry yet, but all my friends who are weapon enthusiasts love to open carry. We go to car meets with ARs and even a couple M4s. I have a friend who has straight up opened carried an M107 to lunch. Completely stupid to carry something so heavy, but its fun. Doing someone other people normally dont do is fun and excercising your rights means you get to keep them
Okay, so your argument is, "It's fun to walk around with my big gun because other people don't do it."



You're well within your rights to do that. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you happen to be carrying a legal gun that is very similar looking to other illegal guns, which the officer supposed to be well aware of the descriptions, then expect to be stopped and have it inspected. If your gun is legal, then you shouldn't have a thing to worry about.

I, however, don't gaf about carrying around a big rifle just to prove a point and/or be a hipster. Pistol, holstered, concealed, take it out when I need it which hasn't been ever, done. It's a tool.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:15 PM   #189
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Basically it boils down to this.

If you have a physical object. In your hand. And it looks very similar to something that is not legal to possess, then explain why a cop should not be allowed to inspect it.

There are many obvious things that actual criminals do that are suspicious, because most criminals are pretty stupid, and human behavior tends to follow similar patterns. People who think they're 1 step ahead of the game all have had people before them think, and do, the same things.

There are many objects in the world that are illegal to possess, and many objects that look very similar to those objects that are illegal to possess.

If you're walking down the street, you're not assumed to be committing a crime.
If you're walking down the street with an illegal object in your hand that the public can see, you're committing a crime.
If you're walking down the street with an illegal object not in view, you're committing a crime, but an officer cannot assume that since he cannot see it in plain sight, and he has zero suspicion of it.

Should the justice system never take any of this information into account and just toss it out because it makes people feel bad? That's stupid. To ignore those patterns (that can be studied) and those objects says that you're not doing it because you don't want some people to feel bad.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:16 PM   #190
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Zell-

Please point out which firearm which would be illegal for me to walk around carrying here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fire...2F%3B600%3B400
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:19 PM   #191
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p.s. An AK-47 is illegal in Kommifornia, so the reaction by the officer's is not what the reaction is here in Georgia would be. In fact, it was pretty reasonable.

Oh, and spoiler, the correct answer to the last question is "none of them".

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Old 10-25-2013, 03:51 PM   #192
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You have said this numerous times. Can you provide something to back it up other than your own say-so?
assume is a poor word choice.

Officers can't go on hunch's, they need clear articulable facts they can verbalize a reasonable person would determine a crime is afoot
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I agree with JonJon.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:27 PM   #193
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I think you're missing a major point here, Xceleratr. These cops weren't "sent" anywhere with a handgun against a guy with an AK. They came across a child with a realistic replica. And you can bet your ass that I would wait until I was getting shot at to fire back. Your assumption that I would empty clip after clip into him might be a reflection on how you would act when faced with a guy with a gun, but I would wait until I was actually threatened.
And, yes, "You sit at your computer in complete safety with clear hindsight and say what should be considered "reasonably safe" by a guy facing a 600 rd/minute weapon." I am doing that, but you know what? They were walking through a neighborhood in complete safety and exercised deadly force without any real danger present. Also, you're assuming a little much on the 600 rd/minute weapon part. The overwhelming majority of AK-47s in the US are semi automatic, so there's no compelling reason to assume otherwise had this been a real weapon.
Thanks for your reasonable response.

I think you're still acting like an armchair GI Joe. Put yourself in the cop's shoes. We have very few details, but lets assume you're in the street by your car and the suspect is walking along the sidewalk, either with his back to you, or with his side to you. The gun is in his hands, not slung over his shoulder. Just to give you the benefit of the doubt, let's say you're on the suspect's right side, and he's right handed, so he's carrying the gun across the front of his body, barrel pointed to his left. You're 25 ft away.

How many tenths of a second would it take for the suspect to turn 90 degrees or even 180 degrees so his body is facing you? How many tenths of a second would it take for him to swing the gun 90 degrees so it's pointed at you? How many thousands of a second does it take to pull the trigger?

Let's take it one (unnecessary) step further. How many tenths of a second would it take for him to bring it up from hip to shoulder to fire it with more accuracy?

Total up that time. Based on what you're saying you'd consider as the cop, that's how much time you have to:

- Evaluate the age of the suspect
- Consider the suspect's body language, facial expression and other visual cues to try to predict his behavior
- Decide how seriously you want to take the assumption that most AKs are semi and not full auto
- Eyeball the barrel of the gun to look for orange paint, and then decide how seriously to take what you see given how easy it is to find black or orange paint
- Consider the age of the suspect and calculate the odds that any bullet he fires would hit you, your partner or a bystander
- Draw your gun
- Get into your shooting stance and raise your gun to point at the suspect so you're ready to fire

Watch this vid starting at 4:00. And then tell me again that you'd let the other guy start shooting before you'd consider him a threat.



And this one:




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A truly excellent contribution. The point I was making was that the percieved threat did not make sense. A child with a weapon that is likely to be semi automatic, or fully auto it really makes no difference, is not enough to warrant shooting them. It wasn't even a weapon. They would have been justified in shooting if the kid had fired a round, or had the weapon in a shooting stance. It is astronomically unlikely for a child, or a grown man, to hip fire a rifle and expect any appreciable accuracy.
The police should almost never be the first to open fire in a situation, especially one like this.
The trigger doesn't care how old the puller is. The bullet leaving the end of the barrel doesn't move slower if the shooter hasn't hit puberty yet. The fragments of bullet slicing through a human body don't avoid vital organs because the person that shot them has so much life left in front of him. The shooting victim's wounds don't heal X% faster for each grade the shooter has yet to complete in school.

And I totally disagree that the police shouldn't shoot first. That's an unreasonable behavior to expect from any person.

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Lets not forget that an officer of the law can never assume you are committing a crime. They were in the wrong because the kid had a toy. They cannot just go assume he has a real one. That **** gets people killed.

Honestly they could have just left him alone. I see no reason to stop someone who is walking around with an AK whether its real or not. I wont assume its real if I am an officer in Cali because I wouldnt want to lose my job or maybe my life
Such a ridiculous cluster of statements.

Take ANY of the mass shootings we've had lately. If any of those shooters had been walking toward their eventual destinations and a cop had seen him and "left him alone" because the cop had "no reason to stop someone who is walking around with an AK", that cop would be crucified.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:11 PM   #194
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while I support people's right to open carry, i don't find it unreasonable for a LEO to investigate or at the very least make contact with any person open carrying a long gun(not so much a pistol). let's face it, it isn't normal to see that behavior, and i understand that.
i agree with xcel, LEOs often have to make split second life or death decisions based on limited information and hesitation might mean you don't go home to your family. i probably would have reacted very similarly considering the situation, child or not.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:36 PM   #195
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assume is a poor word choice.

Officers can't go on hunch's, they need clear articulable facts they can verbalize a reasonable person would determine a crime is afoot
"Never" is also a poor word choice. His whole statement is unsupportable as written. I agree with yours, though.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:51 PM   #196
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Re: California deputies shoot, kill 13-year-old carrying replica assault weapon

Man, there are some of you who responded in this thread that I find fcuking sexy as hell. I would love to take you out to dinner and then bring you home to meet my mama.

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Old 10-25-2013, 07:07 PM   #197
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California deputies shoot, kill 13-year-old carrying replica assault weapon

"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

...


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Old 10-25-2013, 07:18 PM   #198
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"Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:00 PM   #199
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Will Grigg on the excuse for 13-year-old Andy Lopez's death:
"Although that statement was offered by way of extenuation, it underscores the preoccupation with "officer safety" that leads to unnecessary police shootings. A peace officer is paid to assume certain risks, including those necessary to de-escalate a confrontation with someone believed to be a heavily armed suspect in a residential neighborhood. A "veteran" deputy with the mindset of a peace officer would have taken more than a shaved fraction of a split-second to open fire on a small male individual readily identifiable as a junior high school student, who was carrying an object that is easily recognizable as a toy - at least to people who don't see themselves as an army of occupation, and view the public as an undifferentiated mass of menace."

Edit: Thought this would be an interesting read for you guys. A few details are starting to come out. Pretrial is on its way if I recall correctly. That means DISCOVERY!

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Old 10-28-2013, 02:09 PM   #200
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at least to people who don't see themselves as an army of occupation, and view the public as an undifferentiated mass of menace
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