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Old 12-26-2013, 07:39 AM   #561
'busa
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I am all for sane measures that do not harm even if they are based on misplaced theories but it seems every time we lurch into action at the behest of "science", the Law of unintended consequences prevails.
What is "science" and how is it different from science?

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Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
Some examples:

We eschewed the incandescent light bulb in favor of CFL bulbs to lower the carbon footprint of artificial light worldwide, only to increase the release of mercury into the world's waters and food supply.
Negligible. Unless you're making a CFL bulb salad, they're unlikely to get into your food.
On average, a compact fluorescent bulb has somewhere between 2.3 milligrams and 5 milligrams of mercury inside. That probably sounds like a lot, considering it's about 500 times the maximum ingestion amount recommended by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). But here's the thing: By running a CFL, you're not ingesting any mercury at all. The only time you even have a chance of inhaling the mercury vapor in a CFL is if it breaks, and even then, your risk is very limited. If you clean it up thoroughly and quickly (with a broom, not a vacuum, since vacuums can expel it into the air), seal all the debris in a plastic bag, and dispose of it at an approved site (see sidebar), there's barely any risk at all of inhaling a damaging dose of mercury.
To put the roughly 4 mg of CFL mercury in perspective, check out these other mercury numbers [source: CDPHE]:
  • Watch battery -- up to 25 milligrams
  • Thermometer -- up to 2 grams
  • Tilt thermostat -- up to 3 grams
*With CFL mercury exposure hinging entirely on breaking the bulb and not effectively cleaning up, fish definitely pose a greater risk when it comes to mercury poisoning. We actually eat the mercury in the fish. And even then, limiting your fish consumption to a couple of times a week is a perfectly logical balance between the proven health benefits of eating fish and the small amount of mercury you might be ingesting.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...l-mercury2.htm

I wonder, if you're so concerned about mercury polution (which will be reduced by requiring less coal based energy, thanks to CFL bulbs), if you'd be open to some regulation of power plants:
Coal plants are the biggest mercury contributors. Approximately 1,100 such units at more than 450 existing power plants emit 48 tons of mercury into the air each year, with 11 tons of that deposited on to U.S. soil and waters, says EPA. Those plants also release arsenic, lead and other heavy metals, all of which are considered hazardous and are therefore subject to clean air laws that require those facilities to use modern pollution controls.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilve...-less-mercury/


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We decide that ethanol was going to help us go green and save the polar bears, only to find out that he carbon footprint is either the same or larger when all inputs are accounted for. As an added bonus, we increased cereal grain costs, here and worldwide, raising the cost of living for people here and undoubtedly causing deaths by starvation in the a Third World.
I blame the agriculture secretary, Tom Vilsack, whose home state is the largest ethanol producer. Also, the corn lobby and energy industries. They won't be pushed over that easily.

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We are having similar pollution issues with the manufacture of solar panels in China.
We should manufacture them here.

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We do things to drive up the cost of oil to hopefully make green alternatives more competitive, not thinking that food cost and supply are tied to the price of oil and every time oil prices go up, it is a safe assumption that some people at the margins will die.
So, we should do nothing. Surely, the cost of oil will just drop on its own?
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:39 AM   #562
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What is "science" and how is it different from science?
"Science" the god the climate change loonies worship and cite in their attempt to achieve egalitarian poverty of nations under the guise of saving the planet.

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[/LIST]*With CFL mercury exposure hinging entirely on breaking the bulb and not effectively cleaning up, fish definitely pose a greater risk when it comes to mercury poisoning. We actually eat the mercury in the fish. And even then, limiting your fish consumption to a couple of times a week is a perfectly logical balance between the proven health benefits of eating fish and ....
Nobody is talking about eating or breakage. The problem is that most cfl bulbs are manufactured in Asia (China and India) where the EPA doesn't exactly enjoy the authority over manufacturing pollution that it has here.
These nations discharge mercury into the atmosphere and surface waters thus indirectly into the sea and into our food supply.
IMO there is a more present danger of us poisoning ourselves than being immolated by catastrophic rise I temperatures. It is also much easier not to pee is our bath water than to control he output of the sun.

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I blame the agriculture secretary, Tom Vilsack, whose home state is the largest ethanol producer. Also, the corn lobby and energy industries. They won't be pushed over that easily.

We should manufacture them here.
We agree on these points but at least I didn't vote for the people who appoint hacks like Vilsack.

So, we should do nothing. Surely, the cost of oil will just drop on its own?[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:46 AM   #563
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So, we should do nothing. Surely, the cost of oil will just drop on its own?
Why not try that? Markets have a way of sorting themselves out. If oil was going to rise prohibitively in price, the left would not have to devise ways to make its price artificially higher to make alternatives more competitive.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:55 AM   #564
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"Science" the god the climate change loonies worship and cite in their attempt to achieve egalitarian poverty of nations under the guise of saving the planet.
Your flippant quips aren't getting us anywhere.

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Originally Posted by ti317 View Post
Nobody is talking about eating or breakage. The problem is that most cfl bulbs are manufactured in Asia (China and India) where the EPA doesn't exactly enjoy the authority over manufacturing pollution that it has here.
These nations discharge mercury into the atmosphere and surface waters thus indirectly into the sea and into our food supply.
So, you're saying that the amount of mercury released into the atmosphere from CFL manufacturing is greater than the amount of mercury released by coal powered plants that would otherwise have to generate extra power for incandescent lamps? Is that what you're claiming?



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IMO there is a more present danger of us poisoning ourselves than being immolated by catastrophic rise I temperatures.
You realize half of the mercury in the atmosphere comes from coal power plants? How is that not poisoning us?

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It is also much easier not to pee is our bath water than to control he output of the sun.
...

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We agree on these points but at least I didn't vote for the people who appoint hacks like Vilsack.
I'm sure whoever you voted for would have appointed 100% honest, independent thinking patriots whose intelligence and morality are unmatched.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:02 AM   #565
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Why not try that? Markets have a way of sorting themselves out.
There's that quote from George Carlin that keeps going around and anti-conservationists often use it to illustrate human arrogance, but I think they get it wrong. They focus on the insults to liberals and the joke and forget the real meaning of it. I've taken the freedom to start with one of the last phrases of that quote and then give you the part that explains it:


The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed.

...

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles ... hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages ... And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn't going anywhere. WE are!

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam ... The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone.


Yes, the free market, just like Earth, may sort itself out. That doesn't mean that we'll be better off for it. Earth will not disappear. It may not even become worse. But it will be worse for humans. Thanks to humans.

Why would you believe that Earth or the free market have your best interest in mind?
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:21 AM   #566
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Paper about conservative groups and their funding of the climate change counter-movement (CCCM).

http://www.drexel.edu/~/media/Files/...%20Change.ashx

Interesting to see how much money has been invested to deny climate change, and from where that money came from . The first page even starts out interesting:

Quote:
In response to a survey question in the fall of 2012: 1 Do scientists believe that earth is getting warmer because of human activity? 43% replied no, and another 12 % didn't know. Only 45 % of the U.S. public accurately reported the near unanimity of the scientific community about anthropogenic climate change. This result reflects a broad misunderstanding of climate science by the general public.
Looks like the Exxon and Koch money did have an effect. 43%!!!

I am sure there are some news links regarding this paper for those that don't know how to read a paper. However, I don't think a news article is appropriate when access to the full report is available. Provided is the data and sources. Have at it!

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Old 12-26-2013, 11:12 AM   #567
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Are you implying that there has been no money put into the other side? Are you retarded?
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:21 AM   #568
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Are you implying that there has been no money put into the other side? Are you retarded?
You can't even read the stuff you post, I don't expect you to read the paper. Therefore, no conversation needs to exist between you and I. Good day sir.
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Old 12-26-2013, 11:51 AM   #569
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What does money - on either side - have to do with the merits of the respective facts and opinions? LOL at how you commit the most basic debate error with your post and pretend like you are adding value to the discussion, then turn your nose up at AoG when he calls you out.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:09 PM   #570
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Are you implying that there has been no money put into the other side? Are you retarded?
Is that all you gathered from that post? If so, I'd take some internal reflection time with that second question.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:15 PM   #571
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What does money - on either side - have to do with the merits of the respective facts and opinions? LOL at how you commit the most basic debate error with your post and pretend like you are adding value to the discussion, then turn your nose up at AoG when he calls you out.
I suspect you will never understand. Perhaps this is more on your level:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/new...-billio,34658/

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Old 12-26-2013, 02:30 PM   #572
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Re: So....the "consensus" on global warming was a crock all along?

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What does money - on either side - have to do with the merits of the respective facts and opinions? LOL at how you commit the most basic debate error with your post and pretend like you are adding value to the discussion, then turn your nose up at AoG when he calls you out.
As a matter of fact, nothing when it comes to the actual facts, data and resultant conclusions and theories, which is the basic strength of the scientific method and the AGW theory.

Money can have a huge impact however when, in lieu of supporting data one is undertaking basically a PR disinformation campaign all outside the actual facts and data, relying on rhetorical sleights of hand, cheap argumentative tricks, obfuscations and other misleading and deceptive chicanery. This is quite obviously the case with the fossil fuel industry and general corporate funded anti-AGW campaign.

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Old 12-26-2013, 05:24 PM   #573
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Is that all you gathered from that post? If so, I'd take some internal reflection time with that second question.
Not at all, he made a direct implication that only special interest money is in play on the "not that big of a deal if at all" side of this argument. My post was a direct reply to his editorial on the link. He fails to acknowledge that government (R/D) money as well as leftist/environmentalist groups have an even bigger impact due to even greater financial ability. (aka billionaires AND US tax money)

How many scientists can put food on the table because they continually say that climate change is real and we need to keep studying it? You really think they have NO personal agenda? If that were so I assure you they would have no problem working on it for free in their leisure time. No, there are people who have cut out entire lifetime careers out of this. Believe that jack.

"Climate change" is a problem that only government can solve, so accordingly government is going to fund the fvck out of it. The government has zero interest in funding research to show that government cannot fix a problem. That goes for both sides of the aisle.

Government and the leftists have larger mouthpieces than everyone else by far. President, elected officials, Soros (omg billionaire!), hollywood, print media, television all push whatever agenda they want pushed. Are you really going to be offended that some groups that have a different view put their own money in to try to counter that massive wall of propaganda?

please

edit: Article is also biased in that it claims the public has a "broad misunderstanding" of climate science. No, perhaps the public isn't buying your lies anymore. Perhaps that public doesn't care what the "consensus' of paid off scientists who have been proven wrong year after year say. To pin it on Koch money shows the bias through and through.
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Last edited by Act of God; 12-26-2013 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:03 PM   #574
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Your flippant quips aren't getting us anywhere.
And your asinine questions as to why I put "science" in quotes, are? It's Christmas, can you try once a year, not to be a whiny, insufferable little bitch?

Quote:

So, you're saying that the amount of mercury released into the atmosphere from CFL manufacturing is greater than the amount of mercury released by coal powered plants that would otherwise have to generate extra power for incandescent lamps? Is that what you're claiming?




You realize half of the mercury in the atmosphere comes from coal power plants? How is that not poisoning us?
Coal plants have little to do with it. Yes they produce lots of mercury but the washing of equipment, poor storage of hazardous materials and lack of environmental controls in those countries outside of the sphere of influence of the EPA, affect us all.
...


I'm sure whoever you voted for would have appointed 100% honest, independent thinking patriots whose intelligence and morality are unmatched.[/QUOTE]
I am sure that whomever I voted for would not have appointed a hack like Vilsack. Maybe it would have been someone worse, even though I doubt it but the certainty is that your side will always appoint that type of Secretary.

I'd rather risk a bad appointment that enshrine certain failure.
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:04 PM   #575
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There's that quote from George Carlin that keeps going around and anti-conservationists often use it to illustrate human arrogance, but I think they get it wrong. They focus on the insults to liberals and the joke and forget the real meaning of it. I've taken the freedom to start with one of the last phrases of that quote and then give you the part that explains it:


The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed.

...

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles ... hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages ... And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn't going anywhere. WE are!

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam ... The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone.


Yes, the free market, just like Earth, may sort itself out. That doesn't mean that we'll be better off for it. Earth will not disappear. It may not even become worse. But it will be worse for humans. Thanks to humans.

Why would you believe that Earth or the free market have your best interest in mind?
Now it all makes sense! Your source of information and wisdom is a comedian.
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:07 PM   #576
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Your flippant quips aren't getting us anywhere.
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And your asinine questions as to why I put "science" in quotes, are? It's Christmas, can you try once a year, not to be a whiny, insufferable little bitch?
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:44 PM   #577
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What does money - on either side - have to do with the merits of the respective facts and opinions? LOL at how you commit the most basic debate error with your post and pretend like you are adding value to the discussion, then turn your nose up at AoG when he calls you out.
I am a skeptic, of all positions and I have to admit that millions of dollars may be able the outcome of "scientific" research. Then I got to thinking, if millions can affect the outcomes, what could billions do?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybel...ange-hysteria/
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:47 PM   #578
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You're an instigator, you know that, don't you?
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:04 PM   #579
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You're an instigator, you know that, don't you?
Only if you perceive such post as such. Otherwise it's all entertainment on a public forum.
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The whole business of politics has been effectively subcontracted out to a band of professionals. Money people, outreach people, message people, research people. The rest of us are meant to feel like amateurs. In the sense of suckers. We become demotivated to learn more about how things work. We begin to opt out.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:34 PM   #580
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Only if you perceive such post as such. Otherwise it's all entertainment on a public forum.
That it is. My entertainment comes from seeing the posts he will put up, lamenting how I treated him. Wait for it, wait for it......
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