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Old 02-07-2014, 06:56 PM   #81
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I never said that, I said it was a catch 22..This whole action of people moving away from poor only in turn creates more poverty which creates the vicious cycle.

When it comes to education, the Libertarian concept of simply leaving the poor behind, is simply dumb and lazy. The end result is even more uneducated derelicts and crime than before that bleed even closer to those who moved. A society cannot escape or ignore the poor.


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This.
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:58 PM   #82
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This.
You missed my response.

EDIT - I am all for leaving the stupid and lazy behind.

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Old 02-07-2014, 07:02 PM   #83
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You missed my response.

EDIT - I am all for leaving the stupid and lazy behind.
I didn't miss it. What will become of the stupid and lazy after they're left behind?
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:03 PM   #84
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I didn't miss it. What will become of the stupid and lazy after they're left behind?
Couldn't care less.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:41 PM   #85
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Couldn't care less.
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:03 PM   #86
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haha I don't give two shits about the stupid and lazy?

Hokay brosef.
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:14 PM   #87
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I think you'll find most Libertarians get a hard on when you explain the German education system, which leaves almost no one behind.
I'm sure they get a hard on for President Coriolanus Snow as well, no?


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You missed my response.

EDIT - I am all for leaving the stupid and lazy behind.
Remind me again, which group of people are the stupid and lazy?

It is easy to blanket the problem with "people should work hard" and good things will happen for them. That is no different than trying to teach a child to swim by throwing them into the deep end of the pool and expecting them simply breast stroke out of it.

The people we are talking about have zero concept of how to obtain anything in life. The root of the problem lies in educating the children and thus ending the cycle. I'm a registered Republican, but what you are suggesting simply makes no sense. The house is on fire so we're gonna leave and hope it puts itself out? Really.

Explain to me how educating the poorer people would have a negative impact on society?

Explain to me how simply leaving the poor behind makes the situation for you and I better? Did you not see the uneducated and poor storm Walmart when the food stamps machines broke?


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Old 02-07-2014, 08:25 PM   #88
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Explain to me how educating the poorer people would have a negative impact on society?
You cannot educate those who refused to be educated. Trust me, we've been trying.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:03 PM   #89
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Remind me again, which group of people are the stupid and lazy?
People that are stupid and lazy. Generally those people who are of sound mind and body that decide to live off the gub'ment's dime.

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Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post
The people we are talking about have zero concept of how to obtain anything in life. The root of the problem lies in educating the children and thus ending the cycle. I'm a registered Republican, but what you are suggesting simply makes no sense. The house is on fire so we're gonna leave and hope it puts itself out? Really.
No, the root of the problem is we as a culture have adopted this idiot blind faith that any kid, irrespective of intelligence, work ethic, could be a doctor, lawyer, astronaut, or batman. When this just isn't the case. Statistically there are some schools, and some socio-economic subsegments of society that perform much better than others.

So you have this idiot blind faith coupled with the diminishment of the value of skilled labor in this country has produce the situation we find ourselves in.

We have a society that looks down their noses at people who don't go to college, or start a business. We have every idiot politician from both parties go around and opine that "every child needs an opportunity to go to college."

But this is wrong. College isn't for everyone. In fact, I would venture to say it isn't for most people. But the American status-quo tries to force everyone into a collegiate path. This produces 3 major negative externalities;

1) Too many people in college. 40 years ago, when most people didn't go to college all you need to have was a High School Diploma. If you had a high school diploma you could have a good middle-class life. If you wanted to be "banken" you went to college or started a business. Now we have an oversupply of college educated individuals. This makes the 4 year degree an equivalent to a high school diploma from 4 years ago, but with all the debt that goes with it. So now, if you want to be "wealthy" you have to continue your education.

"But Gatriel, thats great we have lots of college educated people. It makes us more competitive than the rest of the world."

I would assert this is incorrect. You have people with 4 year degrees taking jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. This drives down the average wage of a college educated person, as well as a non-college educated person. You also have a whole generation of people that are up to their eyeballs in student loan debt, who can now not buy a house, buy a new car, or purchase consumer goods.

2) Disenfranchise those in poor communities.

Those who find themselves in generational poverty, the option to go to college isn't the first step to getting these people out of poverty. The goal for these people shouldn't be buying a house, leasing a new Beemer, or taking a Hawaiian vacation. It should be getting these people off the support systems they rely on to continue their existence. So getting people out of poverty doesn't mean catapulting them into the top 20% of society. It is just getting them to pay their own rent, utility bills, and food.

The best way to do this, is not "HEY EVERYONE GO TO COLLEGE" it should be "Hey, listen, you go to school in an "at risk" neighborhood. This means that high school drop out is over 50%. As opposed to you dropping out, take some classes and learn to be a BMW mechanic, or learn to be a hair dresser, or how to be an exterminator, or a car audio installer, or some other skilled laborer."

But no, these people have to learn World History, Contemporary British Literature, and Algebra, because, well, college.

3) It is economically inefficient. When there are a fixed amount of resources to educate a group of students, the money should be spent intelligently.

So spend the money for college programs on students who are statically more likely to go to college than those who aren't. Spend the money on students for vocational training for those who vocational training would be a better fit, or are unable to stay an academic under age 22 or so.

But I digress,

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Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post
Explain to me how educating the poorer people would have a negative impact on society?
It doesn't necessarily, but diverting resources from those who are statistically more likely to be successful in higher education to those who are statistically very likely to never set foot in a college classroom is a horrible inefficient use of resources. To be competitive on the world stage the idea of "fairness" has to be tossed out for economic efficiency. Its also a bit of a humanitarian argument, as the status quo is doing nothing but making the poor poorer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Green_Shine View Post

Explain to me how simply leaving the poor behind makes the situation for you and I better? Did you not see the uneducated and poor storm Walmart when the food stamps machines broke?

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It doesn't, but under the status quo -- the poor remain trapped in poverty at the expense of sacrificing our education system.

The German education system is much more efficient in this area, and has thus enabled a more equitable distribution of wealth.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:32 PM   #90
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Nothing?
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:49 PM   #91
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I want a wealthier school district, I will lobby the government to give me one.
I live in one of the wealthiest areas of NJ. It has the #1 school district in NJ. It seems to me that wealthy people (or even middle middle class+) put far more emphasis on education than those in the lower middle class and the poor. I don't see why you find it surprising. Is it surprising to you that wealthy people care more about landscaping and clean streets than poor people?

http://njmonthly.com/articles/towns_...est-in-nj.html

(I do believe it has recently lost the title though, but it is still at the top.)
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:51 PM   #92
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I didn't miss it. What will become of the stupid and lazy after they're left behind?
They will serve you fries on your way to a skiing trip. Why can't you accept that "the world needs plenty of ditch diggers" and not everyone can be a neurosurgeon. Society will ALWAYS have the poor.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:54 PM   #93
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I'm sure they get a hard on for President Coriolanus Snow as well, no?




Remind me again, which group of people are the stupid and lazy?

It is easy to blanket the problem with "people should work hard" and good things will happen for them. That is no different than trying to teach a child to swim by throwing them into the deep end of the pool and expecting them simply breast stroke out of it.

The people we are talking about have zero concept of how to obtain anything in life. The root of the problem lies in educating the children and thus ending the cycle. I'm a registered Republican, but what you are suggesting simply makes no sense. The house is on fire so we're gonna leave and hope it puts itself out? Really.

Explain to me how educating the poorer people would have a negative impact on society?

Explain to me how simply leaving the poor behind makes the situation for you and I better? Did you not see the uneducated and poor storm Walmart when the food stamps machines broke?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Bunch of hippie BS. 15% of the population is living below the poverty line. 5% or so probably are poor through no real fault of their own, and do need some help. Free/cheap education, temporary relief (welfare), etc etc etc. 10% of people are poor because of bad decisions. Substance abuse problems, having children at a very young age, out of wedlock, criminal records, etc. There is nothing you can do to help them. For some reason people think that you can have a country like the US, with 300MM+ people, and not have anyone live below the poverty line.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:57 PM   #94
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People that are stupid and lazy. Generally those people who are of sound mind and body that decide to live off the gub'ment's dime.



No, the root of the problem is we as a culture have adopted this idiot blind faith that any kid, irrespective of intelligence, work ethic, could be a doctor, lawyer, astronaut, or batman. When this just isn't the case. Statistically there are some schools, and some socio-economic subsegments of society that perform much better than others.

So you have this idiot blind faith coupled with the diminishment of the value of skilled labor in this country has produce the situation we find ourselves in.

We have a society that looks down their noses at people who don't go to college, or start a business. We have every idiot politician from both parties go around and opine that "every child needs an opportunity to go to college."

But this is wrong. College isn't for everyone. In fact, I would venture to say it isn't for most people. But the American status-quo tries to force everyone into a collegiate path. This produces 3 major negative externalities;

1) Too many people in college. 40 years ago, when most people didn't go to college all you need to have was a High School Diploma. If you had a high school diploma you could have a good middle-class life. If you wanted to be "banken" you went to college or started a business. Now we have an oversupply of college educated individuals. This makes the 4 year degree an equivalent to a high school diploma from 4 years ago, but with all the debt that goes with it. So now, if you want to be "wealthy" you have to continue your education.

"But Gatriel, thats great we have lots of college educated people. It makes us more competitive than the rest of the world."

I would assert this is incorrect. You have people with 4 year degrees taking jobs that don't require a 4 year degree. This drives down the average wage of a college educated person, as well as a non-college educated person. You also have a whole generation of people that are up to their eyeballs in student loan debt, who can now not buy a house, buy a new car, or purchase consumer goods.

2) Disenfranchise those in poor communities.

Those who find themselves in generational poverty, the option to go to college isn't the first step to getting these people out of poverty. The goal for these people shouldn't be buying a house, leasing a new Beemer, or taking a Hawaiian vacation. It should be getting these people off the support systems they rely on to continue their existence. So getting people out of poverty doesn't mean catapulting them into the top 20% of society. It is just getting them to pay their own rent, utility bills, and food.

The best way to do this, is not "HEY EVERYONE GO TO COLLEGE" it should be "Hey, listen, you go to school in an "at risk" neighborhood. This means that high school drop out is over 50%. As opposed to you dropping out, take some classes and learn to be a BMW mechanic, or learn to be a hair dresser, or how to be an exterminator, or a car audio installer, or some other skilled laborer."

But no, these people have to learn World History, Contemporary British Literature, and Algebra, because, well, college.

3) It is economically inefficient. When there are a fixed amount of resources to educate a group of students, the money should be spent intelligently.

So spend the money for college programs on students who are statically more likely to go to college than those who aren't. Spend the money on students for vocational training for those who vocational training would be a better fit, or are unable to stay an academic under age 22 or so.

But I digress,



It doesn't necessarily, but diverting resources from those who are statistically more likely to be successful in higher education to those who are statistically very likely to never set foot in a college classroom is a horrible inefficient use of resources. To be competitive on the world stage the idea of "fairness" has to be tossed out for economic efficiency. Its also a bit of a humanitarian argument, as the status quo is doing nothing but making the poor poorer.




It doesn't, but under the status quo -- the poor remain trapped in poverty at the expense of sacrificing our education system.

The German education system is much more efficient in this area, and has thus enabled a more equitable distribution of wealth.
Definitely with you on the college scam, and the fact that we should be pushing trade schools FAR FAR more than college. Anyone with a trade never goes hungry.
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