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Old 04-28-2014, 01:48 PM   #41
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Why does it have California tags?
I was just driving behind one here in NY last week, same color, also had Cali tags
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:30 PM   #42
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Yes, but economically it is not as cheap as you think.
Lets start an educational debate so we can be updated with costs of driving an electric car these days.

Firstly, Marshmallow, how cheap does the person you quoted think it is to drive an e-car?
Then we can bash him
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:50 PM   #43
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The range is amazing, but still not where I personally need a vehicle to be for me to consider it.

The recharging of the batteries needs to be much much quicker. Replacing the batteries as in the video would be a great alternative, if the infrastructure and price for the swap could be handled so that a minimum 300-400 mile commute would be seamless to drivers, as useful as a gasoline engine is today.

As the supercharger network expands, this will become more and more possible. It's already possible to drive across the country for free while making a 30 minute stop every 250-300 miles.

Every surface of the Tesla's interior is very nice, but not quite to the level of an $80,000-$125,000 vehicle. I get the feeling that Tesla had vendors provide quotes for the least-expensive choices of the best materials available, and in some cases (the leather, or the carpet, for instance) still chose the next level down. Still damn nice, mind you, just... off a bit. I wish I could explain it better. It's just not top top notch stuff for the price. I know, I know, up-and-coming manufacturer and all that. Still... The front trunk lining is already showing serious signs of wear and tear, in a car only a few months old.

Agreed. This will change as they gain more stigma in the automotive world. Suppliers don't really trust them with the large volumes that they are quoting as such Tesla needs to skimp on materials to hit cost targets. As they gain more stability, suppliers will offer price breaks to get better materials for the same or slightly higher cost.

The performance is incredible, and the sensation of being on some sort of rail gun sled is intoxicating. Add to that the virtual silence as you accelerate, and I found myself stabbing the pedal more than I should have. Sadly, that kills range very, very quickly.

This is the same as any car. If you floor it, you use more gas and lose range so meh.

Until and unless laws are changed (allowing sales directly to the consumer without dealer involvement) and/or they start placing showrooms in major cities (and not-so-major cities), their ambitious sales goals are unrealistic as all get-out. And the elephant in the room: Will Tesla still be in business in two, five, ten years? They have not made dime one yet. How long can they continue to exist under their present financial situation? I just see a big house of cards at this time. I hope I'm wrong...

They are hitting goals now aren't they? The cars are selling basically as fast as they can make them. The dealer network is expanding as fast as they can and I'm sure that either laws will change or Tesla will conform. Something's gotta give on that front or else they will stall out. Also, they were profitable for 2 quarters last year and also for Q1 of 2014.
see above.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:14 PM   #44
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see above.
I wrote, "The recharging of the batteries needs to be much much quicker. Replacing the batteries as in the video would be a great alternative, if the infrastructure and price for the swap could be handled so that a minimum 300-400 mile commute would be seamless to drivers, as useful as a gasoline engine is today."

A reply: "As the supercharger network expands, this will become more and more possible. It's already possible to drive across the country for free while making a 30 minute stop every 250-300 miles."

That's all fine and good for straight line here-to-there driving. That's not how most driving is done. What if you're visiting Grandma in Omaha, and you're driving from Richmond? What if you want to take a side trip to Lexington to visit Cousin Betsy? What is there's a cool restaurant in Memphis you can't wait to try? Basically, if you're in a Tesla, you're on an unmarked railroad track, and side trips are at the mercy of the batteries. No, until and unless they make a vehicle that will allow a driver to go anywhere with impunity (a la Volt), their vehicles will be a wealthy play toy, not a true automobile.

Also: "And the elephant in the room: Will Tesla still be in business in two, five, ten years? They have not made dime one yet. How long can they continue to exist under their present financial situation? I just see a big house of cards at this time. I hope I'm wrong..."

Answer? "They are hitting goals now aren't they? The cars are selling basically as fast as they can make them. The dealer network is expanding as fast as they can and I'm sure that either laws will change or Tesla will conform. Something's gotta give on that front or else they will stall out. Also, they were profitable for 2 quarters last year and also for Q1 of 2014."

You may already know that Tesla doesn't really make a profit from the sale of its vehicles, but rather from the sale of emissions credits, mandated by the state of California and its electric vehicle requirements. Their competitors, who don't have a mass market plug-in, are unable to meet the mandate, and therefore are forced to buy the credits from Tesla, the only company that does. The actual estimated loss per vehicle to Tesla is well north of $10,000 per each vehicle it "sells." And I won't even go into the taxpayer-subsidized bonus that every buyer gets... in other words, as taxpayers, you and I are buying a little piece of every Tesla ever sold, whether we want to or not.

Consider: No dealerships in a vast percentage of the country, limited performance compared to ICE cars (please, don't embarrass yourself by quoting 0-60 times and range, you know what I mean), a big price tag, new technology (which still spooks lots of buyers), plus actuarial and financial sleight-of-hand accounting to claim "profits!"... It's still a house of cards, and eventually, houses of cards cannot sustain themselves. I'm truly surprised they've made it this far... and I wish them luck, but I'm not at all sure they can continue for much longer as they have.
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:20 PM   #45
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Thanks for that post, BB. It was very informative (for me, at least).
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:22 PM   #46
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Well to be fair, Musk himself said he started the company expecting it to fail, so it's a miracle they've lasted this long.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:29 PM   #47
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I wrote, "The recharging of the batteries needs to be much much quicker. Replacing the batteries as in the video would be a great alternative, if the infrastructure and price for the swap could be handled so that a minimum 300-400 mile commute would be seamless to drivers, as useful as a gasoline engine is today."

A reply: "As the supercharger network expands, this will become more and more possible. It's already possible to drive across the country for free while making a 30 minute stop every 250-300 miles."

That's all fine and good for straight line here-to-there driving. That's not how most driving is done. What if you're visiting Grandma in Omaha, and you're driving from Richmond? What if you want to take a side trip to Lexington to visit Cousin Betsy? What is there's a cool restaurant in Memphis you can't wait to try? Basically, if you're in a Tesla, you're on an unmarked railroad track, and side trips are at the mercy of the batteries. No, until and unless they make a vehicle that will allow a driver to go anywhere with impunity (a la Volt), their vehicles will be a wealthy play toy, not a true automobile.

Also: "And the elephant in the room: Will Tesla still be in business in two, five, ten years? They have not made dime one yet. How long can they continue to exist under their present financial situation? I just see a big house of cards at this time. I hope I'm wrong..."

Answer? "They are hitting goals now aren't they? The cars are selling basically as fast as they can make them. The dealer network is expanding as fast as they can and I'm sure that either laws will change or Tesla will conform. Something's gotta give on that front or else they will stall out. Also, they were profitable for 2 quarters last year and also for Q1 of 2014."

You may already know that Tesla doesn't really make a profit from the sale of its vehicles, but rather from the sale of emissions credits, mandated by the state of California and its electric vehicle requirements. Their competitors, who don't have a mass market plug-in, are unable to meet the mandate, and therefore are forced to buy the credits from Tesla, the only company that does. The actual estimated loss per vehicle to Tesla is well north of $10,000 per each vehicle it "sells." And I won't even go into the taxpayer-subsidized bonus that every buyer gets... in other words, as taxpayers, you and I are buying a little piece of every Tesla ever sold, whether we want to or not.

Consider: No dealerships in a vast percentage of the country, limited performance compared to ICE cars (please, don't embarrass yourself by quoting 0-60 times and range, you know what I mean), a big price tag, new technology (which still spooks lots of buyers), plus actuarial and financial sleight-of-hand accounting to claim "profits!"... It's still a house of cards, and eventually, houses of cards cannot sustain themselves. I'm truly surprised they've made it this far... and I wish them luck, but I'm not at all sure they can continue for much longer as they have.
Point 1: Yes that's true that you are at the mercy of the batteries but at this point, if you're within 150 miles of a supercharger, you're fine. If you're within 150 miles of your home, you're fine. 150 miles is quite a distance if you consider a day's worth from where you are staying seeing as though most people only drive ~40 miles per day. So yes, I do agree that there is a huge issue with getting electricity if you're far away from any charger but that's something that needs to be worked into your trip. If you run out of gas before getting to a gas station you are equally as screwed but I do understand your point. Also, your statement of driving from Richmond to Omaha will be a moot point next year when the supercharger network extends to accommodate that route.

Point 2: Yup I did know that and at this point, that suits their business model. As time goes on and they improve the process and cost of building these cars, the profit on a car will come. The tax payer subsidies go to the purchaser and not to Tesla so meh. The car still costs what it costs and the rebate is to the buyer.

I certainly do hope that they are around for the long haul. There hasn't been a company in a long time that has given the big F-U to the auto industry and shaken up the whole works. Tesla is getting to be the Google of the auto world by offering genuinely new and technologically advanced cars that do things other cars can't rather than tweaking the infotainment system and calling it a day. On top of all of this, they are actively taking a role in furthering the electric car world by building the supercharger network to provide the needed infrastructure to support all of these cars.

FWIW, I'm not disagreeing with you so much as having a (for once) decent conversation here.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:33 PM   #48
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Lets start an educational debate so we can be updated with costs of driving an electric car these days.

Firstly, Marshmallow, how cheap does the person you quoted think it is to drive an e-car?
Then we can bash him
Well he doesn't state exactly what it costs, just that he rarely pays for gas. His car is a Chevy Volt.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:02 PM   #49
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Well he doesn't state exactly what it costs, just that he rarely pays for gas. His car is a Chevy Volt.
So dafuq were u talking bout then
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:13 PM   #50
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So dafuq were u talking bout then
Well economically, electric cars are not more efficient than gas powered vehicles. A Chevy Volt costs close to $100k each in terms of development cost but is reduced by government subsidies funded by taxes. Even at $40k, the Volt is still not efficient because of the economic alternatives. A $5k used Honda Civic will achieve 40mpg on regular gas. The fuel savings from an electric car will never come close to the savings by buying a used Civic, for example. However, most people won't because they don't want an older car and a Prius, Volt, Tesla, etc. is a fashion statement. It shows that you care about the environment and that is cool.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:26 PM   #51
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Teslas are all over town. I see them as much as I see E class Mercs or a 5.

Went to San Francisco/Palo Alto back in February and they are literally everywhere. Dealership down the street from my hotel was a Tesla and Mclaren dealer
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:31 PM   #52
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A $5k Civic won't have a good sound system (or any sound system), clean seats, rust free body, a properly functioning suspension, an engine not out of a lawnmower, quiet ride, space for 5 or more people, the overall reliability of a car with less than 300k miles on it, etc...

It's not only about the fashion statement especially because the Tesla does FAR better than 40mpg equivalent.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:40 PM   #53
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A $5k Civic won't have a good sound system (or any sound system), clean seats, rust free body, a properly functioning suspension, an engine not out of a lawnmower, quiet ride, space for 5 or more people, the overall reliability of a car with less than 300k miles on it, etc...

It's not only about the fashion statement especially because the Tesla does FAR better than 40mpg equivalent.
My point is not that you should buy a used Civic over a Tesla. It's that economically speaking electric and most hybrid cars are not as efficient as people think.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:52 PM   #54
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Economically speaking, none of us should drive a car because it's one of the worst things you can spend your money on.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:12 PM   #55
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Economically speaking, none of us should drive a car because it's one of the worst things you can spend your money on.
True, but if for example you live in the country and have to get to work and there is no public transit, you don't have many options so you must endure this expense. But clearly, it is an expense that most people except because of the high number of benefits.

Also, in reference to my used Civic idea, you could buy a new Gof TDI over a Volt. You will never save enough gas to justify the cost of the Volt.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:21 PM   #56
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Well economically, electric cars are not more efficient than gas powered vehicles. A Chevy Volt costs close to $100k each in terms of development cost but is reduced by government subsidies funded by taxes. Even at $40k, the Volt is still not efficient because of the economic alternatives. A $5k used Honda Civic will achieve 40mpg on regular gas. The fuel savings from an electric car will never come close to the savings by buying a used Civic, for example. However, most people won't because they don't want an older car and a Prius, Volt, Tesla, etc. is a fashion statement. It shows that you care about the environment and that is cool.
Prius is not a fashion statement... are you baked?!?!?!

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Old 04-28-2014, 05:22 PM   #57
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True, but if for example you live in the country and have to get to work and there is no public transit, you don't have many options so you must endure this expense. But clearly, it is an expense that most people except because of the high number of benefits.

Also, in reference to my used Civic idea, you could buy a new Gof TDI over a Volt. You will never save enough gas to justify the cost of the Volt.
who said anything about economics? and why pick and choose a used civic versus the electric? does that make any sense? the civic is better than your minivan or e46 too. so what? a bike is better than any.

so if all cars are dumb economically, why not choose the one that doesn't support terrorism or ruining the environment?
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:23 PM   #58
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Prius is not a fashion statement... are you baked?!?!?!

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Well, not as much as it used to be. It definitely was when it came out
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:26 PM   #59
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They make you feel good that you are helping the environment though. (That is if you are an idiot.)

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who said anything about economics? and why pick and choose a used civic versus the electric? does that make any sense? the civic is better than your minivan or e46 too. so what? a bike is better than any.

so if all cars are dumb economically, why not choose the one that doesn't support terrorism or ruining the environment?
I'm just making a point that fuel efficiency is a lie.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:36 PM   #60
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They make you feel good that you are helping the environment though. (That is if you are an idiot.)



I'm just making a point that fuel efficiency is a lie.
how is it a lie? the capital cost of an electric car is more than a gas powered one, but you can operate it at one tenth the fuel cost. and that doesn't factor in zero oil changes and brakes that last 100,000 miles. and what is your opportunity cost of filling your gas tank? it's what 10 minutes of your day each week or two. that is 4-8 hours a year. is that time valuable to you? how about standing out in the cold and rain pumping dead dinosaur juice into your car? what is the value of eliminating that?

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