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Gun Talk
Are you a gun fanatic as well? If so, you'll want to talk to other owners about what you own in this forum.

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Old 06-03-2014, 02:18 AM   #1
Reedo302
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Review of a Training Review

On a local forum, there is a guy who runs his own firearms training. The training group is one of those groups that believes in one day courses. Single day courses work fine for very basic training, but there are multiple courses they offer that could be considered to go beyond the very basic elements. There is significant research by professionals like Ron Avery that indicate that the fewer the days of training, the less information can be retained. If you are given a massive information dump in one day and then given 20 minutes here and 15 minutes there to test it all out, you're likely not going to remember all of it four months from now. I've found that the minimum time for an actual gunfighter type course (which they do) is two full days, with ideal lengths at 3-5 days. Many groups limit it to 2 days for the sake of fitting them in on weekends, which is somewhat of a necessity to get people to train since a lot of people won't take a day of vacation to go to training.
Now, reviews of this group are generally positive. I suspect that they're a decent enough basic level training group. I know through the forum that the guy that runs it, Erik, is lacking in some knowledge areas where he tries to be an expert, and SHOULD be an expert based on what he is teaching.

We have another group in town that does the same thing, and they also do precision rifle shooting with a one day course, which is just asinine.

Anywho, I would encourage people to look at after action reviews, or AARs of training before they take it. AARs are great for training and preparation, and they are a great way to exchange information. Even more than that, they're a great way to evaluate the training before ever taking it. The problem is learning to decipher the information.
I rarely read a bad AAR. Most people who take the time to write an AAR liked the course, and those that didn't like the training just won't do anything and don't care enough to make it known. What happens is that you tend to get a lot of people who don't know how to evaluate their training, and instead are just happy to have gotten to take a trip to Tactical Fantasy Band Camp and do something they've never done. The way to evaluate this information is to read what they have written and to interpret what they are actually saying. Did the course actually make them think and learn, or are they simply commenting on how much fun they had?

Below is a video that illustrates my point. This video review/AAR is a good review of someone who doesn't have a lot of experience or knowledge, and if you read his website, you'll see he's sort of a "fringe" person. The video points out a number of things that the shooter does that indicates improper mindset and some ignorance. What goes beyond that is that you learn to read into the fact that the difficulties that he had were not adequately policed by the trainer. What this guy did is something that I as a trainer prefer students to NOT do.

So, here's the video:






Let's break this down bit by bit...

In the start, he details that he's using an AR pistol with a 6.75" barrel chambered in .300BLK. First of all, using an AR pistol is not ideal for a rifle course where you are shooting out to 100yds. It's understandable to want to use one while you are waiting for an NFA stamp, but ever since the ATF gave Tim from Military Arms Channel a letter stating that you can shoulder a pistol, everyone is just buying the Sig brace and using it as a flimsy stock. The barrel length is extremely short, even for .300BLK. The .300BLK was optimized for the 9" barrel, and a 6.75" barrel is 25% shorter than that. Gas pressure is exponential, which is why velocity loss in SBRs tends to increase dramatically as you get shorter and shorter. A 6.75" barrel is also obnoxious to other shooters. With both training groups that I work with, we banned anything under 10", with the exception of 9" .300BLK barrels, and G36C barrels (on LE guns). The reason being that the concussion for super short SBRs causes sinus headaches.

Case in point as to why:


The barrel he used was from Ice Arms. From the narrator's blog, he wrote this:
Quote:
My 6.75" barrel is from Ice Arms, and there was quite a debate on the build quality and accuracy of their barrels. They do not have a good reputation in the 5.56 community, but so far everyone I know who has purchased their 300 Blackout barrels has been pleased.
Basically, he knowingly bought a barrel from a company that has documented consistent quality control issues. If you intentionally buy something from a company that you know has problems, you have nothing to be upset about if your rifle won't work. I suspect that his rifle is likely over-gassed by way of a larger gas port, which is a technique commonly used by lower quality gun companies. That is just based on experience though, and is only an educated guess.

At 0:35 on the video, you see a guy doing a little side-to-side dance while he reloads. This technique has been taught ad-nauseum in the past by people who don't know any better. They claim that it keeps you mobile and we all know that a moving target is harder to hit. Well, when you dancing around in an area the width of a patio door, you're really not a moving target. What you'll notice is that the shooter is obviously having difficulties because he's dividing his attention and doing multiple tasks at once. He's consciously thinking about moving while also consciously attempting to remove a magazine from a pouch and then manipulating the weapon. Think of how much faster the reload could have been performed if he had just stopped and focused on the reload. There is a saying: "Shoot when you are shooting, move when you are moving, reload when you are reloading." This means that if you are doing a deliberate action, you will best accomplish it if you actually only do that one thing. This refers heavily to unnatural actions while attempting to perform mechanical or divided attention skills. If you are walking, you can shoot. If you are running, you cannot shoot effectively. If you are walking forward you can likely reload just as fast as when standing still. However, side-to-side lateral movement is not conventional or natural movement, so you must think about it and thus cannot effectively manipulate your gun.
My point will be reiterated in a moment...

At 1:16 he talks about his reloads that he used where he had about 40 of them fail to fire. He documents this in his blog. This is why you DO NOT use hand loads in gunfighting courses. Precision rifle training is the only acceptable exception.

At 1:50 he has finally had so many malfunctions that he has to transition to pistol. He engages targets from 40yds to 100yds with the pistol. If you have absolutely no other choice, you can make this work if you have the training. If you have alternatives, you have no business engaging a target beyond 50yds with a pistol. The average 9mm drops 12" at 100yds, so you can imagine what a slower .40 or .45 would do. Ballistics also take a nose dive at those ranges. The ideal option is to perform malfunction clearance on the rifle. If the ammo is all bad, ditch the mag and put in a new one.

At 2:19 he goes into a remedial malfunction clearance action. WHILE MOVING. Look at how much difficulty he's having with doing the manipulations. As I stated before, divided attention causes problems. The ideal response should be to run to cover and get down, stop, and do the manipulation. If not that, stop in place and sort it out. If you are far enough away to need to do the clearance instead of transitioning to sidearm, your best advantage is to do whatever you can to get the rifle up and running as fast as possible. When you watch, you see that it takes him something like 20-30 seconds (estimate if you take into account the slow-motion portion) to perform the manipulation. A properly trained shooter can clear a double-feed/Type-3 malfunction in ~10-15 seconds. When seconds count, doubling your time because you want to prance around is ridiculous.


Point of all this is that I learned a lot about this training group based on this AAR. What I get is that the trainer is jamming a bunch of info into a short period of time to give everyone a "taste". This amounts to gaming or play, not legitimate long term training. If top level trainers need at least two days to train people who to shoot while moving, why would lower-end instructors think that they can build a better mousetrap? This is an example of a question that you should ask yourself when you see or read something that deviates or stands out as being questionable.

Food for thought is all.
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Old 06-03-2014, 07:39 AM   #2
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I only have a few things to add. I've taken several one and two day courses, but only one three day course. I thought that I would be exhausted after day three. I was tired, but not to the point that I thought that I would be. For the average guy that is doing this for fun and not a job, I think asking them to take a 3-5 day course is a little much. Personally, I wouldn't take a five day course. My vacation time is too precious.

That guy pacing back and forth while trying to reload or fix a malfunction is just.... In any course that I've taken, that AR pistol would have been taken away and he would have been given a proper, functioning weapon.

What was that around his neck? It looks like he had a backpack on his side?

Quote:
What I get is that the trainer is jamming a bunch of info into a short period of time to give everyone a "taste". This amounts to gaming or play, not legitimate long term training.
This is exactly what I went through in my first carbine class. What should have been a basic class was instead eight hours of ballistic masturbation; moving and shooting, pistol transitions, partner "tactics", etc. We should have focused on a good zero, basic malfunctions and maybe a little movement.
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Old 06-03-2014, 08:20 AM   #3
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a one day course going into a ton of modified shooting positions like that is way too much for a basic course. If you've got one day to give a few OAF operators a refresher on modified shooting positions, great, it'll probably go very well. But for a bunch of civilians coming out to take a rifle/carbine/AR pistol course, no.

But I can understand where they're coming from. They are trying to give you the best badass experience they can, because they attract customers who think they're badasses. I had this debate several times on the arfcom facebook group before it was shut down. Some OAF trainer was posting all his "active shooter" training videos where they teach you, joe blow the concealed carrier, how to go find the active shooter and kill him. I got severely flamed for saying that the best bet for joe blow the concealed carrier is to exit the active shooter situation. All of the "You're a coward", "Your training taught you how to tuck tail and run?", "Kyle Defoor disagrees with you", "Travis Haley says 'x' instead", "Ex-operator-turned-salesmen Jim Jimmers says that as a sheepdog, you need to put your life in danger to go kill the badguy".

F that. This class looks like it's designed by somebody who's watched a bunch of videos, probably been through a class or three, maybe spent a couple years in the military or as a cop and figures that gives him the expert perspective, and wants to give a bunch of guys the Ultimate Tactical Experience by cramming as much different crap into as short a time as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see them attempting live-fire team bounding drills to heighten the reality.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:06 AM   #4
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Thanks for posting! I'm planning on taking a few courses in the near future and appreciate the heads up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
But I can understand where they're coming from. They are trying to give you the best badass experience they can, because they attract customers who think they're badasses. I had this debate several times on the arfcom facebook group before it was shut down. Some OAF trainer was posting all his "active shooter" training videos where they teach you, joe blow the concealed carrier, how to go find the active shooter and kill him. I got severely flamed for saying that the best bet for joe blow the concealed carrier is to exit the active shooter situation. All of the "You're a coward", "Your training taught you how to tuck tail and run?", "Kyle Defoor disagrees with you", "Travis Haley says 'x' instead", "Ex-operator-turned-salesmen Jim Jimmers says that as a sheepdog, you need to put your life in danger to go kill the badguy".

F that. This class looks like it's designed by somebody who's watched a bunch of videos, probably been through a class or three, maybe spent a couple years in the military or as a cop and figures that gives him the expert perspective, and wants to give a bunch of guys the Ultimate Tactical Experience by cramming as much different crap into as short a time as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see them attempting live-fire team bounding drills to heighten the reality.
I often wonder if i'm alone with that thought process. I mean all different situations call for different responses. But in my mind, if i can get out of the situation at hand, that's the first option. Seems to be a lot of "john rambos" voicing what they would do in many situations. I largely assume it's all talk and when bullets start flying they'll be hitting the deck like everyone else. I personally have no delusions of grander thinking that i'm going to be the big hero. My weapon is first and foremost for the defense of myself and my family. If the situation arises where i'm with a group of people OUR lives are being threatened and there is no exit, don't believe the hype when the media says i was protecting those people.

I mean, if the courts say that LEOs don't even have a duty to put their lives in harms way to protect people, I feel it shouldn't be my duty either.
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Old 06-03-2014, 09:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by MP0WER View Post
Thanks for posting! I'm planning on taking a few courses in the near future and appreciate the heads up.


I often wonder if i'm alone with that thought process. I mean all different situations call for different responses. But in my mind, if i can get out of the situation at hand, that's the first option. Seems to be a lot of "john rambos" voicing what they would do in many situations. I largely assume it's all talk and when bullets start flying they'll be hitting the deck like everyone else. I personally have no delusions of grander thinking that i'm going to be the big hero. My weapon is first and foremost for the defense of myself and my family. If the situation arises where i'm with a group of people OUR lives are being threatened and there is no exit, don't believe the hype when the media says i was protecting those people.

I mean, if the courts say that LEOs don't even have a duty to put their lives in harms way to protect people, I feel it shouldn't be my duty either.
Worst case, I'm making for the exit. If the active shooter happens to be between me and the exit, I've got no problem shooting first. But the question becomes, is it really the active shooter, or is it some concealed carry neckbeard with his gun drawn that thinks he's going yipee-kiy-yay-motherfvcker on the bad guy? If he sees me with a gun drawn, is he going to immediately paste Dolph Lundgren's head on my body and open fire? Is he going to have the mental capacity/presence of mind in half a second to figure out whether I'm a threat or not?
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Old 06-03-2014, 10:59 AM   #6
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This is a pretty pertinent topic, given the flood of firearms related reviews out there. I find the same issue with Youtube gear reviews as well. Way too many people out there putting out hours of endless gear masturbation in the name of reviewing their Guns/Holsters.

Like ^ this guy, most of them don't know enough to know that they don't know sh!t. Though it doesn't stop them from regurgitating they same crap they read on some fringe forum or wanna be trainer.

Question: @ 0:57 when he fires the rifle a few inches from the board, I was thinking he should have placed the muzzle IN the hole to reduce the chance of shooting the board and injuring himself?
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Old 06-03-2014, 11:07 AM   #7
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This is a pretty pertinent topic, given the flood of firearms related reviews out there. I find the same issue with Youtube gear reviews as well. Way too many people out there putting out hours of endless gear masturbation in the name of reviewing their Guns/Holsters.

Like ^ this guy, most of them don't know enough to know that they don't know sh!t. Though it doesn't stop them from regurgitating they same crap they read on some fringe forum or wanna be trainer.

Question: @ 0:57 when he fires the rifle a few inches from the board, I was thinking he should have placed the muzzle IN the hole to reduce the chance of shooting the board and injuring himself?
I've always been taught that you don't stick your muzzle through the hole you're shooting through, be it a slot in a pallet or a window or door.
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:10 AM   #8
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The course that I'm working on with 10-32 Solutions is Civilian Response to an Active Shooter. The current mantra is what they're teaching teachers, which is RUN-HIDE-FIGHT. Run if you can, but if you can't, hide. If you can't hide, then you have no option but to fight because otherwise you're just waiting to die.

The problem with someone with a CCW going after an active shooter is that it's a situationally dependent action. If you are there when it starts, intervention may be the best option to preserve life. However, people can walk into an already-occurring active shooter incident due to lack of situational awareness, and that can be problematic. It can also be problematic if you are in the area of an active shooter that you know has been occurring for a while and finally decide to act. LEO training is geared towards rapid response teams, whereby there is no waiting for a tactical team. You get some officers together and go into the incident scene in teams purely for the purpose of hunter-killer action. You're there solely to hunt down the shooter. In testing, they found that there was over 60% chance of Blue-on-Blue friendly fire when officers were in plain clothes. As a result, plain clothes officers are not to be going into schools unless it's absolutely necessary, and at that point, they need to with uniform officers for their own protection. Now throw in a civilian who has likely never been in an actual critical incident before, and hey likely won't be able to handle the stress due to lack of stress innoculation. Their decision making skills are going to be impaired. The chances of friendly fire against another CCWer likely increases dramatically.
Now, take this statistic and apply it to a civilian walking around. If you're a civilian walking around with a gun looking for the shooter and you are spotted by the police, you will be shot. There is no verbalization in an active shooter. It's strictly PID and engage.

The other thing people need to consider is whether they have the equipment to engage in a sustained firefight. Most people who carry are carrying a small pistol with no reload. Even those that carry reloads often are carrying a single stack magazine for a small pistol. Yes, some people carry G19s with a spare mag and have a total of 31rds of ammunition. That could work. But food for thought- what weapon does the shooter have? Do you want to bring a 9mm to a 7.62x39mm fight? Or does the guy have a 9mm too?

The problem is that many of these pundits and arm chair commandos don't think about any of these factors. They buy into this sheepdog bullshit and think that they have a higher calling to be Steven Seagal in a three-word-titled movie (look that one up, kids). Too many people spend their time reading Dave Grossman literature, which does nothing but feed their egos. Then they get wrapped up in the tactical fantasy band camp training that floats around, because there are many instructors that won't tell their students to cool it and focus on the fundamentals. Too many instructors spend their time feeding the egos of their students, which is why so many no-name instructors do so well and get good reviews. People go to the training and have fun, get a new experience, and have had their egos built up so much that they feel like their meat-missile is 12" long.
The biggest disservice that trainers do to their students is faililng to reiterate and reinforce that their training is only a small piece of the puzzle. Far too many students believe that a certificate makes them "certified". Many instructors do nothing to abbate this mindset, and as a result you have students who get training and then never again train on what they learned. Retention of information then goes in the toilet. Students think they're great because they've gone to training, and they fail to realize the fact that they have merely a fraction of the training that they really need in order to be as good as they believe they are in their heads.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:24 PM   #9
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Tend to agree with most of what everyone has said. Reedo's post above ^ is excellent. I like the RUN - HIDE - FIGHT idea...no way I'm playing hero and getting my ass shot.

But let's be honest and not mince words here. These courses, including advanced handgun, advanced/tactical carbine, etc. are definitely training civilians into thinking they're one-man swat teams. Be honest with yourself. In a civilian capacity, can anyone really think of any situation in which you'd be geared up in plate protectors, mag pouches, etc. w/ a sidearm and an SBR looking all tier 1 ready for a gunfight? And then combine that with shooting these drills like under cars, through barriers, etc. in the name of preparedness. It's bullsh1t really. I can't think of a single situation realistically in which I as a civilian would ever employ quite a few of these techniques or dress up tier 1 ready for a fight. Defending my own home is one of the only scenarios that enter my head that's close and I'm fairly confident that my engagement won't last long...the second those bullets start flying, the perps are out of there.

So Reedo, your point is well-made, but I think you need to look at the courses themselves as well and what they're really educating people on and what they're trying to accomplish. These courses were originally designed to train LEO/MIL and were adapted to civilians based on demand. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that really, other than that I expect people to acknowledge that many of those attending those courses get a big charge out of thinking they're ready for anything, including playing Rambo at the next active shooter situation.

LEO/MIL like Reedo that attend these classes have at least a moderate chance of one day having to employ the techniques taught in a real situation. The rest of the tier 1 wanna-bes really don't. And the only applicable situation in which I see them using techniques like those taught in some of the advanced classes and gearing up like they do is civilian unrest/anarchy/civil war. Nobody sits on their couch in a plate carrier with mags on their belt eating popcorn and watching "Ancient Aliens", or at least they don't if they don't have something wrong in their head. Nor do they drive to work in all that gear unless they're LEO/MIL.

Anybody else understand what I'm driving at?

What it comes down to really is that these classes are fun. They're fun, you learn to be proficient with a weapon of your choice, in the unlikely event of total anarchy you're in better shape than others, and you get a good workout. Beyond that, there's almost no reason why a civilian would take an advanced course I don't think.

And based on the mantra that they're fun, I'll make a point about the firearms themselves. Reedo, you mentioned how a 6.75 inch 300 blackout gun was ridiculous for this sort of thing. And while technically I agree with you 100% regarding velocity, accuracy, build quality, etc. the fact remains that the guy is taking this course on a most basic level for fun. And the weapon he is using likely will be the go-to for him should he ever need to employ these techniques.

And you can say what you want about how dumb of an idea that is, how it disrupts other shooters, and how the instructors might ban the weapon/make him use something else. But really, all you're doing when coming to that conclusion is eliminating the guy's go-to weapon from the equation. One should practice with their primary weapon; if that's his, so be it. Other shooters be damned...if concussion is bothering them, tough sh1t. It's a distraction that is minuscule compared to bullets whipping past their heads in a real gunfight without hearing protection.

I've taken a few of these courses over the years. I normally run a very slick rig with no plate carriers or anything crazy. Just a t-shirt, breathable pants, a holster for my sidearm, a few spare mags in carriers, and a sling. Something I might access if I would ever need to employ these techniques...something realistic. And I've gotten quite a bit out of them though I, really really rusty at this point. Do I ever envision myself using any of this stuff? No. Do I love to go because for one day in my life it makes me feel tier 1, gives me a great workout, and I have a good time? Absolutely. But the courses themselves definitely give many a neckbeard the impression that they're prepared for the next active shooter situation and that they can play Rambo to go and get the baddy.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:35 PM   #10
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Has there been a rise in quick buck classes? Like the equivalent of the McDojos. Jam alot of non-practical information down students necks for the sake of making money and placing false confidence within the customer/student.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:06 PM   #11
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bunch of non-tactical wannabe bros up ITT. I'm taking care of the active shooter situation, if I see cops come on scene, I'll take care of them if they make themselves a threat to me. I went through the JJATCTCPBC (Jim Jimmers Advanced Triple Canopy Tactical Combat Pistol Bro Course), so I know what I'm doing. I didn't see any cops in the JJATCPBC, either, so I know they're not as Triple Canopy Tactical Combat Ready as I am. It was a grueling four hour course (five if you count the lunch break) that really seperated the non-tactical neckbeards from the manly tactical chin beards like me. I know it was legit because they sent home three guys who showed up with 9mm instead of .45 ACP. Jim Jimmers says you can't get good knockdown power with 9mm, and .45 will work until they make .46 ACP.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:08 PM   #12
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Be honest with yourself. In a civilian capacity, can anyone really think of any situation in which you'd be geared up in plate protectors, mag pouches, etc. w/ a sidearm and an SBR looking all tier 1 ready for a gunfight?
Hold on... are you telling me you don't go out like that regularly?

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Old 06-04-2014, 02:11 PM   #13
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Nobody sits on their couch in a plate carrier with mags on their belt eating popcorn and watching "Ancient Aliens", or at least they don't if they don't have something wrong in their head. Nor do they drive to work in all that gear unless they're LEO/MIL.
Classic "no true Scotsman" fallacy there.

You never know when the fertilizer will hit the air conditioner, you need to always be prepared.

And I don't watch "Ancient Aliens", I watch Adventure Time.
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