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Old 03-15-2006, 08:15 PM   #61
changedthegame
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Its funny how the first 15 or so replies were positive/supportive and the next 15 were negative/somewhat flaming. I am willing to be some of latter are people that paid way too much for headers
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Old 03-15-2006, 08:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
Its funny how the first 15 or so replies were positive/supportive and the next 15 were negative/somewhat flaming. I am willing to be some of latter are people that paid way too much for headers
I think it may more be like the people who have been there and done that before trying to help out others from buying before knowing the negatives of an unproven header. I would rather admit a mistake and allow others to learn from me on this forum than to keep quiet and see others make the same mistake. I think many Fanatics here on the board want to help(although some do it condensendingly). I can't say anything about that header system, but do believe the lightweight flywheel and new clutch are very felt.
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Old 03-15-2006, 08:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
Its funny how the first 15 or so replies were positive/supportive and the next 15 were negative/somewhat flaming. I am willing to be some of latter are people that paid way too much for headers
well now, aren't you just the cool guy today?

Maybe the ones that are a little leary have enough experience to know better? Didja ever think of that, Einstein???

Like I said before, NO DYNO, NO CARE!!!
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Old 03-15-2006, 09:30 PM   #64
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[QUOTE=slow323ci]Sorry, but I think you (and many others here, not meaning to pick on you in particular) know less than you think you do. Here's why:

1. It is possible for a well-designed cast iron manifolds to flow better than mediocre (or worse) tubular headers

QUOTE]

No offense taken but by you stating thats its possible for a well-designed cast iron manifolds to flow better than mediocre (or worse) tubular headers means you also know that it works vise versa. As I stated, a cast manifold will usually, BUT NOT ALWAYS, restrict more air flow than most tubular manifolds.

I understand there might be some cast manifolds out there that fit your description, but have you seen our manifolds? Take a look at them and then tell me that the ebay semi equal length manifold will restrict more air than that. These ebay headers seem to be replicas of the supersprint so im sure the design is proven.

it seems like you just joined our group of members who think they know more than they do.
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:36 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Bim Growl
well now, aren't you just the cool guy today?

Maybe the ones that are a little leary have enough experience to know better? Didja ever think of that, Einstein???

Like I said before, NO DYNO, NO CARE!!!
Seems like someone is getting a little defensive huh? And nobody asked you to care. The poster was just posting his recent mods and his noticeable results, why are you hating on him? And Im sorry but there is NO way that a cast iron stock manifod on this car delivers more air flow than tubular aftermarket headers. I dont care if it was purchased through Ebay. Point blank.



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it seems like you just joined our group of members who think they know more than they do.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by E46S54DR
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow323ci
Sorry, but I think you (and many others here, not meaning to pick on you in particular) know less than you think you do. Here's why:

1. It is possible for a well-designed cast iron manifolds to flow better than mediocre (or worse) tubular headers
No offense taken but by you stating thats its possible for a well-designed cast iron manifolds to flow better than mediocre (or worse) tubular headers means you also know that it works vise versa. As I stated, a cast manifold will usually, BUT NOT ALWAYS, restrict more air flow than most tubular manifolds.

I understand there might be some cast manifolds out there that fit your description, but have you seen our manifolds? Take a look at them and then tell me that the ebay semi equal length manifold will restrict more air than that. These ebay headers seem to be replicas of the supersprint so im sure the design is proven.

it seems like you just joined our group of members who think they know more than they do.
Yeah, OK, I was trying to be nice. I have seen our factory manifolds and they are not nearly as grotesque as you make them seem.

If you can estimate airflow just by looking at a tangle of tubes, you surely must be employed by a major exhaust manufacturer and kept well-fed as their golden-boy guru who replaced that pesky expensive flow bench!

There's a lot more to designing an effective exhaust manifold/header than making smooth looking pipes.

I just think a lot of people are being overly optimistic about potential performance based on an ebay photo or two and some uneducated assumptions about what makes a header perform.

I'm not saying it is possible or impossible that the ebay headers are good or bad, it's just amusing how so many are able to discern that from a photo. Not being negative or positive, just realistic.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
And Im sorry but there is NO way that a cast iron stock manifod on this car delivers more air flow than tubular aftermarket headers. I dont care if it was purchased through Ebay. Point blank.
Before somone jumps at you for this. A mis-conception is that headers/exhaust systems are to only flow better. What they need to do also is help extract and have the right back pressure in the whole system. That is why some systems have different size tubing and length. To compliment the engine. Short tube and long tube are low-end and top end performance gain types. Depending on the design, they can make power in different ranges. An engine without an exhaust will most often lose power(that one surprised me when I first learned it), thus an example that the less flow restrictive of all systems may not better than stock.
As for this tubular exhaust manifold, could be great. I do not know. But without the cat inline, I'd say it was a top end performer. As for strength and integrity, we all will have to see over time how he says it does.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:08 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
Seems like someone is getting a little defensive huh? And nobody asked you to care. The poster was just posting his recent mods and his noticeable results, why are you hating on him? And Im sorry but there is NO way that a cast iron stock manifod on this car delivers more air flow than tubular aftermarket headers. I dont care if it was purchased through Ebay. Point blank.
how do you know that this header was built well ? just by looking at it ? oooo its shinyyy.. must be goood right ? =O Why dont u put some 100$ headers on your car meant for a V6 and put them side by side for the Inline-6.. same **** right ? its tubular after all.. just because its tubular. doenst' mean its better if its not built well.. could have leaks .. and poor build quality.. flexing during high heat and cracking..

like my other example.. those 50$ ram air intakes for civics.. looks pretty cool. nice and shiny.. sounds good... it must be good!!.. too bad they heatsoak and suck ass and make you lose HP vs the cold air from the OEM airbox ...

if you expect 180$ headers to perform well on your car.. by all means put them on..
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:13 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
Seems like someone is getting a little defensive huh? And nobody asked you to care. The poster was just posting his recent mods and his noticeable results, why are you hating on him? And Im sorry but there is NO way that a cast iron stock manifod on this car delivers more air flow than tubular aftermarket headers. I dont care if it was purchased through Ebay. Point blank.
Defensive? No.

Annoyed? Yes.

Every once in a while someone comes on the board with a new idea or has found a "great new mod". We hear about it for a thread or two, and then guess what? We never hear from that guy any more after a month or two. I wonder why? Hmmmm.

I've been around here for a long time guy. I've been around cars my whole life. I know what works and what doesn't. I can recognize quality (or lack thereof) in a New York minute, and I am just not convinced that these headers are any good.

I'm not hating on anyone. I'm simply urging other fanatics to take care when they choose their mods...

You are a moron to think that well engineered cast manifolds can't make more power than those cheap-ass things that guy bolted to his engine.

Lots of inexperienced kids like yourself come on here spouting this and that. Reality is, it's pure opinion and useless conjecture. Let's see a before/after DYNO. Let's see some hard evidence that these things work!!! Until I see that, I'm going to call it as I see it, and right now I see crappy product with piss-poor welds. I hope he can prove me wrong in six months, and I hope he's found an inexpensive solution for the E46. That would be great, but I've been around the tuning world long enough to know the first rule is that you generally get what you pay for...

Normally, I wouldn't care, but when those uninformed opinions start influencing others who come here looking for RELIABLE information and all they get is people like you spouting pure crap then this site goes to hell and loses it's value as a community.

I care about this community, and time and time again I have stood up for the community and I've stood up for myself as a member. I've been through these silly little debates with silly little people like yourself way too many times for me to really care one way or the other. Truth is, I've been here for a while, and I'll be here for a long long time; and what about you, kiddo?

People will believe who they trust. Who are they gonna trust? Some goon punk who has $200 to spend on headers and more time than brains to justify it, or someone who's spent a good portion of his life to develop his passion through first hand experience with motorsports and with people who can share the most experience in the BMW tuning community?

Get out of the pool. It's adult swim time, and you are in way over your head...
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:15 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
And Im sorry but there is NO way that a cast iron stock manifod on this car delivers more air flow than tubular aftermarket headers. I dont care if it was purchased through Ebay. Point blank.
I'm sorry but you obviously don't know **** about header design. Point blank.

There are at least 2 places where a crappy header design could EASILY cause it to flow FAR less than a stock manifold. A poorly designed or manufactured top flange or poorly designed or manufactured collector can really f*ck up your flow!
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by slow323ci
Yeah, OK, I was trying to be nice. I have seen our factory manifolds and they are not nearly as grotesque as you make them seem.

If you can estimate airflow just by looking at a tangle of tubes, you surely must be employed by a major exhaust manufacturer and kept well-fed as their golden-boy guru who replaced that pesky expensive flow bench!

There's a lot more to designing an effective exhaust manifold/header than making smooth looking pipes.

I just think a lot of people are being overly optimistic about potential performance based on an ebay photo or two and some uneducated assumptions about what makes a header perform.

I'm not saying it is possible or impossible that the ebay headers are good or bad, it's just amusing how so many are able to discern that from a photo. Not being negative or positive, just realistic.
Thank you, "professor".

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Old 03-15-2006, 11:29 PM   #72
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Bim Growl and slow323ci...I worship you both

In the numerous threads like this I've seen you guys respond to, you own everyone with your knowledge. Thank you for setting this community straight.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:34 PM   #73
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Bim Growl and slow323ci...I worship you both

In the numerous threads like this I've seen you guys respond to, you own everyone with your knowledge. Thank you for setting this community straight.
Yeah well, all I have to say is, "In the kingdom of blind men, the one-eyed man is king."

I don't know jack!!! But thanks anyways, that made me feel good.

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Old 03-15-2006, 11:40 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Bim Growl
Defensive? No.

Annoyed? Yes.

Every once in a while someone comes on the board with a new idea or has found a "great new mod". We hear about it for a thread or two, and then guess what? We never hear from that guy any more after a month or two. I wonder why? Hmmmm.

I've been around here for a long time guy. I've been around cars my whole life. I know what works and what doesn't. I can recognize quality (or lack thereof) in a New York minute, and I am just not convinced that these headers are any good.

I'm not hating on anyone. I'm simply urging other fanatics to take care when they choose their mods...

You are a moron to think that well engineered cast manifolds can't make more power than those cheap-ass things that guy bolted to his engine.

Lots of inexperienced kids like yourself come on here spouting this and that. Reality is, it's pure opinion and useless conjecture. Let's see a before/after DYNO. Let's see some hard evidence that these things work!!! Until I see that, I'm going to call it as I see it, and right now I see crappy product with piss-poor welds. I hope he can prove me wrong in six months, and I hope he's found an inexpensive solution for the E46. That would be great, but I've been around the tuning world long enough to know the first rule is that you generally get what you pay for...

Normally, I wouldn't care, but when those uninformed opinions start influencing others who come here looking for RELIABLE information and all they get is people like you spouting pure crap then this site goes to hell and loses it's value as a community.

I care about this community, and time and time again I have stood up for the community and I've stood up for myself as a member. I've been through these silly little debates with silly little people like yourself way too many times for me to really care one way or the other. Truth is, I've been here for a while, and I'll be here for a long long time; and what about you, kiddo?

People will believe who they trust. Who are they gonna trust? Some goon punk who has $200 to spend on headers and more time than brains to justify it, or someone who's spent a good portion of his life to develop his passion through first hand experience with motorsports and with people who can share the most experience in the BMW tuning community?

Get out of the pool. It's adult swim time, and you are in way over your head...



1) The amount of posts you have on this site doesnt give you credibility, it just means you spend all your time on the computer
2) I'm probably older than you so please dont assume you know my age
3) What kind of irritated me was that people were bashing this guy for getting headers from ebay and him saying he noticed gains and people just trying to $hit on him because he paid $180 and they are from ebay. Unless you have experience with this specific model, dont begin to bash it because its not a name brand header. Neither your NOR I can really speak on its gains because neither of us own it or dyno'd with it before and after. Neither of us can speak on its quality or if it leaks etc. The poster did mention its fitment were good. So thats a good sign but as far as everything else you are not at liberty to speak on it because you are making assumptions. I said what I have to say. Thank you and enjoy your evening.

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Old 03-15-2006, 11:47 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
1) The amount of posts you have on this site doesnt give you credibility, it just means you spend all your time on the computer
2) I'm probably older than you so please dont assume you know my age
3) What kind of irritated me was that people were bashing this guy for getting headers from ebay and him saying he noticed gains and people just trying to $hit on him because he paid $180 and they are from ebay. Unless you have experience with this specific model, dont begin to bash it because its not a name brand header. Neither your NOR I can really speak on its gains because neither of us own it or dyno'd with it before and after. Neither of us can speak on its quality or if it leaks etc. The poster did mention its fitment were good. So thats a good sign but as far as everything else you are not at liberty to speak on it because you are making assumptions. I said what I have to say. Thank you and enjoy your evening.
we never said the header is ****.. we just choose to not believe it gives any gains.. why ? because its basic car knowledge that if you remove the CATSand put on a lightened flywheel, you will get gains. and chances are with headers of that price.. its the cat delete the is giving him gains.. we were never bashing. we were just stating the obvious =P he can give us a dyno to shut us up if he wants.. but hes not even around

edit.. its actually removing the CATS
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:51 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by valenti
we never said the header is ****.. we just choose to not believe it gives any gains.. why ? because its basic car knowledge that if you remove the headers and put on a lightened flywheel, you will get gains. and chances are with headers of that price.. its the cat delete the is giving him gains.. we were never bashing. we were just stating the obvious =P he can give us a dyno to shut us up if he wants.. but hes not even around


Understood.
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:52 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by changedthegame
1) The amount of posts you have on this site doesnt give you credibility, it just means you spend all your time on the computer
2) I'm probably older than you so please dont assume you know my age
3) What kind of irritated me was that people were bashing this guy for getting headers from ebay and him saying he noticed gains and people just trying to $hit on him because he paid $180 and they are from ebay. Unless you have experience with this specific model, dont begin to bash it because its not a name brand header. Neither your NOR I can really speak on its gains because neither of us own it or dyno'd with it before and after. Neither of us can speak on its quality or if it leaks etc. The poster did mention its fitment were good. So thats a good sign but as far as everything else you are not at liberty to speak on it because you are making assumptions. I said what I have to say. Thank you and enjoy your evening.
Reply:

1.) It's not quantity of posts, it's quality of information. You've already proven that. Thanks.
2.) I could care less about your real age. My comments are based off what you say and the assumption that experience = age. No more no less. by the way, I'm 28, not that it matters.
3.) Nobody's bashing anyone. We were simply saying that you can't judge a book by it's cover. We all hope that they are in fact a well-engineered solution for the E46. However, I find it hard to believe that they could be well-engineered, and be so cheap... His perceived gains are quite easily attributable to the simultaneous flywheel upgrade... I'm not speaking on the gains or lack thereof, I'm just saying I see some issues with how they look, and I would be leary of any headers that cost $200... Another thing, Don't mistake assumptions for experienced observation.

I wish you a good evening as well. Thanks for being civil.
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:01 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by slow323ci
Yeah, OK, I was trying to be nice. I have seen our factory manifolds and they are not nearly as grotesque as you make them seem.

If you can estimate airflow just by looking at a tangle of tubes, you surely must be employed by a major exhaust manufacturer and kept well-fed as their golden-boy guru who replaced that pesky expensive flow bench!

There's a lot more to designing an effective exhaust manifold/header than making smooth looking pipes.

I just think a lot of people are being overly optimistic about potential performance based on an ebay photo or two and some uneducated assumptions about what makes a header perform.

I'm not saying it is possible or impossible that the ebay headers are good or bad, it's just amusing how so many are able to discern that from a photo. Not being negative or positive, just realistic.
I never said i was a guru! Im just giving the ebay headers the benefit of a doubt because ive read that it is a copy of the supersprint which has r&d.

Just by looking at our oem manifold i can see that it has 3 short runners emerging into a just as small collector at such harsh angles. If thats such a great design, why dont all reputable header manufacturers use this design?

I just dont undertand why you and so many others see bmw engineers as GODS! They could practically crap on a platter and some will bow down and praise it! It seems like some people on here have the reasoning that if its on a bmw it must be well planned engineered and tested. If this is so true, why so many problems such as our subframes tearing? This was a common and known defect of the e36, why didnt they fix it in it e46?

Again, this is not an attack on anybody... I am also a firm believer on the saying "You get what you pay for!" All I said was that the design looks to be more free flowing than that of an oem one; nothing else on its reliability or longevity!
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:06 AM   #79
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[QUOTE=Bim Growl]Reply:


3.) Nobody's bashing anyone. We were simply saying that you can't judge a book by it's cover. We all hope that they are in fact a well-engineered solution for the E46. However, I find it hard to believe that they could be well-engineered, and be so cheap... QUOTE]

you couldnt believe what cheap labor over seas can do to a price
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Old 03-16-2006, 12:10 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Bim Growl
well now, aren't you just the cool guy today?

Maybe the ones that are a little leary have enough experience to know better? Didja ever think of that, Einstein???

Like I said before, NO DYNO, NO CARE!!!
actually i think what you said was "lets give him a chance to post a dyno before we flame him"

or at least something to that effect

ill be 100% honest i have no clue the mechanics of cheap headers. obviously the lack of a ceramic coating will present heatsoak issues which def could hurt you,especially if you FI

but why do these threads turn into soap operas

its the sweet bargain finders versus the almighty all-knowing
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