Another Gun Thread

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Keep in mind that 21ft is the REACTIONARY GAP. I can get to you with knife inside of 21ft faster than you can react, draw your pistol, and shoot.

Just some facts to pass along...

Which is why the 21ft line is painted at the range. lol.

You are a cop. Am I wrong for not discharging a weapon that I pulled to stop the act of serious bodily injury or death?

Originally Posted by glockman9c

Which is why the 21ft line is painted at the range. lol.

You are a cop. Am I wrong for not discharging a weapon that I pulled to stop the act of serious bodily injury or death?

Discharging is the last recourse. If you don't discharge, consider yourself lucky. It's less paperwork and less chance of a lawsuit. According to the NRA, 90% of situations and confrontations are ended/resolved upon the drawing/presentation of a firearm.

FWIW, if you do shoot someone and have to pull the trigger, hope that you kill them. It'll be cheaper for you when the civil suit comes.

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Keep in mind that 21ft is the REACTIONARY GAP. I can get to you with knife inside of 21ft faster than you can react, draw your pistol, and shoot.

Just some facts to pass along...

I think what you're referring to is 21ft can be closed faster than most people can draw and fire without practice. That's what they teach in the CC classes, practice so you can draw and fire before someone can close that gap which if I remember can be covered in 2 or 3 seconds from standstill on average. EDIT: I read your post wrong I'm an idiot...i just repeated what you said...my bad

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Keep in mind that 21ft is the REACTIONARY GAP. I can get to you with knife inside of 21ft faster than you can react, draw your pistol, and shoot.

Just some facts to pass along...

21ft? That sounds pretty far, thats 2 feet further than the distance from the freethrow line to the baseline. Now my average reaction time, when I know that I'm going to need to react, is about .3 seconds. How long do you suppose it would take you to unholster a weapon? In trained hands, maybe 2 seconds? Even if we figure in half a second for chambering a round, we're right around 3 seconds.

I guess it is pretty close, but if I had any room to move away from you during this whole time, you wouldn't stand a chance from 21ft.

read up on your laws ...

and no offense to any officers here .. but don't ask them about what is legal and what is not .. read up on the laws or talk to a lawyer

and Glockman .. do everyone here a favor that you are giving advice to and go read up some please

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Discharging is the last recourse. If you don't discharge, consider yourself lucky. It's less paperwork and less chance of a lawsuit. According to the NRA, 90% of situations and confrontations are ended/resolved upon the drawing/presentation of a firearm.

FWIW, if you do shoot someone and have to pull the trigger, hope that you kill them. It'll be cheaper for you when the civil suit comes.

So you are saying, that there is no way in hell that it is illegal to draw a weapon without firing it, if you had the right to draw it in the first place, right? (armed robbery, car jacking, aggrevated assult by multiple perps, etc.)

Scientifically speaking, it takes the average human 1.5 seconds to react to stimulus. .75 seconds to recognize the stimulus and .75 seconds to initiate a response/react. You can close 21ft in 1.5 seconds or less. Try it sometime and you'll realize that 1.5 seconds is a LONG time.

Originally Posted by glockman9c

So you are saying, that there is no way in hell that it is illegal to draw a weapon without firing it, if you had the right to draw it in the first place, right? (armed robbery, car jacking, aggrevated assult by multiple perps, etc.)

If you can justify and articulate the necessity to draw, you probably won't get in trouble. Shoot vs don't shoot is dependent upon the circumstances and response of the assailant. You just need to make sure you can articulate why you drew in the first place (i.e. fear for your own safety/safety of others. Depends on the state).

.75 seconds to initiate a response sounds far fetched. Take a reaction test, and theres no way you're gonna be pulling .7's.

Originally Posted by NightWolfe

read up on your laws ...

and no offense to any officers here .. but don't ask them about what is legal and what is not .. read up on the laws or talk to a lawyer

and Glockman .. do everyone here a favor that you are giving advice to and go read up some please

read up on what?

I have been a legal CWL holder carrying a glock since 1992. I have drawn it twice and wish I never had to. I was immediately cleared in both cases without any charges of any kind for any reason.

What exactly should I be reading?

And for the record, I never said a DAMN thing about laws or when to or not pull a gun. You were the one who brought that up. We were simply talking about guns.

Originally Posted by tim g

21ft? That sounds pretty far, thats 2 feet further than the distance from the freethrow line to the baseline. Now my average reaction time, when I know that I'm going to need to react, is about .3 seconds. How long do you suppose it would take you to unholster a weapon? In trained hands, maybe 2 seconds? Even if we figure in half a second for chambering a round, we're right around 3 seconds.

I guess it is pretty close, but if I had any room to move away from you during this whole time, you wouldn't stand a chance from 21ft.

so you know bad guys that are gonna warn you when you're gonna need to react? those are nice criminals...

Originally Posted by tim g

.75 seconds to initiate a response sounds far fetched. Take a reaction test, and theres no way you're gonna be pulling .7's.

That's best case scenario and what we testify to in court. I've been in court more times than I can list. 3 hrs of OT minimum, baby!!!
It's feasible that it'll take you longer but the courts throughout the US recognize that it takes AT LEAST 1.5 seconds to respond to a stimulus.

Originally Posted by 3erdriver

so you know bad guys that are gonna warn you when you're gonna need to react? those are nice criminals...

No but if I see a crazy looking dude standing 20 feet from me in an alley, I have a pretty good idea that I might need to react.

I suppose it might take up to 1.5 if I'm just chilling with some friends sitting at a table having a drink, and suddenly theres a psycho with a machete coming at us from nowhere.

For those interested in self defense take a look at this ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

and look up some of this guys stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

...

Glockman .. you're talking about never carrying with a chambered round .. drawing down on people without actually firing .. just spouting off about things that most people (that I've read atleast) consider to be very bad/wrong things .. you are right .. to each their own

I am reading....

Can't find anywhere where is says you must shoot someone if you draw your weapon....

Found this...

It is unlawful to have or carry a firearm in the presence of one or more persons and exhibit the firearm in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manners, except in cases of self-defense.

I will keep lookin....

Maybe illegal was a harsh word .. but you should still never draw unless you intend to shoot .. unless all the self defense instructors I've ever spoke with were wrong

Originally Posted by glockman9c

I am reading....

Can't find anywhere where is says you must shoot someone if you draw your weapon....

Found this...

It is unlawful to have or carry a firearm in the presence of one or more persons and exhibit the firearm in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manners, except in cases of self-defense.

I will keep lookin....

You should never draw unless you intend to shoot, but drawing doesn't necessarily mean you HAVE to shoot. You can always de-escalate. I have pointed my gun at an untold amount of people and have been ready to shoot. I have yet to shoot in a police capacity (military is a different can of worms all-together).

As long as you can articulate that you were IN FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE or the LIFE OF ANOTHER, you'll be fine. If you learn state statutes, you'll always be golden. Learn what the elements are within your state. All you have to do is articulate that you were feeling those emotions/perceptions, you're going to be okay. The biggest problem with self-defense is that men do not articulate their feelings and will not admit fear. If you can admit and articulate fear, you'll always avoid conviction.

Maybe you're talking about never putting your finger on the trigger unless you are going to shoot? That's probably it.

what he's saying is, you should not be drawing your firearm unless it would be legally defensible for you to discharge it....in simple words if you pulled your gun and would in anyway be doubted if you immediately fired you shouldn't have pulled it in the first place..

Originally Posted by glockman9c

So you are saying, that there is no way in hell that it is illegal to draw a weapon without firing it, if you had the right to draw it in the first place, right? (armed robbery, car jacking, aggrevated assult by multiple perps, etc.)

I think it varies state to state. In WA you have to feel your life is threatened to draw without possibly facing assault charges. With that said, i have a friend who pulled on a guy with a bat and was in the clear.

Oh and reedo has said shoot to kill never to wound. If you're shooting someone it is because they are going to kill you (or it is reasonable to believe they are)...