/// VF Stage 2 Dyno's LOW \\\

VF-Engineering has been an M3Forum sponsor for many years. As BMW owners/enthusiasts as well, we appreciate the existence of the forum for personal use as well. With many hundreds of supercharger systems sold for the E46M3, we firmly believe in the use of the forums to chat with owners and post information about our products.

As with many forums, there are debates and often heated debates. But on a rare occasion some users may choose to use the forum as means to conduct a negative publicity campaign against an aftermarket manufacturer (even a sponsor) with the motive of damaging a manufacturers reputation. Most manufacturers have been at the receiving end of this and often, the most popular product brand will be the one that inherently attracts the most attention (good and bad). Smear campaigns and dressed up false accusations are all common tactics employed. At VF we find that focusing on positive discussion and contribution on the forums is the way to gather respect.

Sometimes users can post up looking for help on a supercharger kit or talk about their experience or to complain about their car not making the "advertised power". This can easily be misconstrued to tarnish the product reputation. As a supercharger kit manufacturer, we often feel that it is our responsibility to help our customers by educating them with the diagnostic information. In many situations customers can usually uncover possible installation errors or failed OEM components, if they keep a cool and open mind. Staying open minded and not blaming the aftermarket product as a first gesture, is usually the most beneficial way to approach problem solving. Today at VF-Engineering's R&D facility, we encountered one such experience at first hand:



Subject car:
Stock 2005 E46 M3 SMG

Customers says:
I've installed your VF Stage 2 supercharger and an exhaust system (but keep stock muffler for quietness) and dyno'd with 91 octane. I also want many of the service items replaced as a preventative measure (Front 02 Sensors / Coolant temp sensors / Coil packs).

Outcome:
Car dynod stock 275whp/232wtq stock
Stage2 supercharged dynod only 403whp/280wtq ! Not normal.

VF Trainee Technicians comments:
Our target numbers are about 458whp/309wtq and we are quite far from that. I have performed a vacuum test, pressure test, smoke test, checked all aspects of the supercharger system and cannot find anything wrong. I thought the stock rear muffler could be a restriction so I took it off and dyno'd. The results did not change. I checked that we flashed the correct version of our performance software and we had. what to do now-?

Head technicians comments:
Boost, AFR all check out, ignition timing is correct, no leaks.
1) Lets look at all the data again and consider all the facts.
I am going to take car out on a 50 mile gentle road test and see if any error codes arise. On the way back from my test drive, I noticed that bank2 sensor1 oxygen sensor voltage was not cylcing as fast as the other 3 sensors. Then after 30 miles a fault of the "heater in Bank2 pre-cat" registered, but no Check Engine Light. Hmm- thats odd, we just put a pair of brand new Bosch pre-cat 02 sensors! Lets follow the what our scan tool is telling us and change the new front Bosch 02 sensors AGAIN with 2 more new ones - but this time don't buy them from our regular Bosch dealer, buy them from the BMW dealership direct.

VF Trainee Technician comments:
I installed the second set of new 02 sensors pre-cats and dyno'd the car and it made full power: 455whp/305wtq!!! TARGET ACHIEVED~

Moral of the story:
Dont jump to conclusions about aftermarket supercharger kits before you have thoroughly checked all possibilities or consulted an experienced technician. Ask the kit manufacturer for help and be nice to them. They are human beings just like you. Bashing them on the forum or making harsh accussations or incinuations is not nice!

REMEMBER, we are ALWAYS here for YOUR support!! VF-Engineering

~the REAL final outcome...

Good post. Makes me want to go swap out my O2 sensors... They have 120k+ on them...

Per Robert Bosch Corp.

Why should worn-out oxygen sensors be replaced?

Replacing a worn-out* oxygen sensor will improve fuel economy, improve your customer’s overall vehicle performance,
drastically reduce exhaust emissions, and help to prevent premature failure of the expensive catalytic converter. This is why
checking for, and replacing, worn-out oxygen sensors is an important part of regular vehicle maintenance.

A worn-out oxygen sensor: Replacing a worn-out oxygen sensor:

-Wastes fuel
-Can cause engine performance problems, such as surging and
hesitating
-Decreases engine performance
-Is a major cause of excessive harmful exhaust emissions Reduces air pollution
-Accelerates catalytic converter damage
-Causes premature failure of the expensive catalytic
converter

When should oxygen sensors be replaced?

“Recommended Check/Replace Intervals“ can be located in the Technical Data section in the Bosch Oxygen Sensor
catalogue. The check/replace interval is not the only factor in determining whether an oxygen sensor may need to be
replaced. If your customer’s vehicle shows signs of increased fuel consumption, poor engine performance, or excessive
emissions, the oxygen sensor should be tested. If the “Check Engine” light on the vehicle is illuminated, retrieving the code
stored will help you determine whether a new oxygen sensor is required. Remember that deterioration of the oxygen sensor
generally occurs over time, so your customer will not see instant failure. The ability of modern management systems to
“adapt” can easily cover a faulty oxygen sensor. A faulty oxygen sensor can result in a rich “shift” of the vehicles fuel map.
This results in the vehicle being rich accross the entire driving range.

*Oxygen sensors with 1- or 2- wires typically wear out after 50,000-80,000 Kms, while 3- or 4- wire sensors typically wear out
after 100,000 Kms. (60K miles+/-)

Very helpful info...

Originally Posted by Hubert@VF

As with many forums, there are debates and often heated debates. But on a rare occasion some users may choose to use the forum as means to conduct a negative publicity campaign against an aftermarket manufacturer (even a sponsor) with the motive of damaging a manufacturers reputation.

Sometimes users can post up looking for help on a supercharger kit or talk about their experience or to complain about their car not making the "advertised power". This can easily be misconstrued to tarnish the product reputation.

I'm not sure who the comments are directed toward but it may be helpful for you to give some more specific examples of exactly who "choose to use the forum as means to conduct a negative publicity campaign against an aftermarket manufacturer (even a sponsor) with the motive of damaging a manufacturers reputation."

Right or wrong maligning current and/or former customers on a public discussion forum is in poor taste. 2c's

VF can call it a negitive campain, the rest of the world calls it the truth. My question remains, what are you going to do for the people who blew their motors.

Originally Posted by deltasleep

VF can call it a negitive campain, the rest of the world calls it the truth. My question remains, what are you going to do for the people who blew their motors.

Really, the rest of the world?

Who exactly blew their motor and what was the cause?

Originally Posted by deltasleep

VF can call it a negitive campain, the rest of the world calls it the truth. My question remains, what are you going to do for the people who blew their motors.

Having built many boosted cars myself, sometimes it comes down to user error. You can't blame a kit for blowing a car up. Sometimes there's a lot more variables than that. One thing that would cause a engine to blow is detonation. This is usually caused my excessive timing or lean conditions. A bad fuel pump can cause this or a bad cooling system. Btw, superchargers don't have the ability to over boost like turbocharger systems do.

Originally Posted by Greg Ogden

haha.. i posted just that smilie over at m3f and got an infraction...


In the last three weeks, Ive seen several threads created by old and new vf customers expressing there experiences with vf. which is good but it makes you wonder why? Is Nik begging his customers to post positive reviews?

And now VF-E has posted this thread? Are sales down this month?

Originally Posted by Nik@vf-engineering

Really, the rest of the world?

Who exactly blew their motor and what was the cause?

You need the list again? I thought you would have the list at work. Here is a quick few I can think of.

Ravi...you blamed it on a catch can..the real cause poor or no tune.

Drippabmw...300 miles on kit..cause poor or no tune.

T Pham motor blew just after install..no safty measures built in, poor or no tune.

So the question is Nik who out of these 3 people I just named did you help out like AA and HPF have..Both of those vendors stood up and helped their buyers out. A company is not graded on it success's it graded on how they handle customers in need. Don't side step the question, these three people spent over $10,000.00 with you. How did you help them out?

We could talk about all the parts you had me buy that I didn't need, or your recommended clutch that destroyed my transmission to the point of needing replacement. That little beauty could have cost me $9,000.00 had I not pleaded with the service manager to warranty the transmission.

Originally Posted by boostjunky

Having built many boosted cars myself, sometimes it comes down to user error. You can't blame a kit for blowing a car up. Sometimes there's a lot more variables than that. One thing that would cause a engine to blow is detonation. This is usually caused my excessive timing or lean conditions. A bad fuel pump can cause this or a bad cooling system. Btw, superchargers don't have the ability to over boost like turbocharger systems do.

Very true, BUT when all three motors have the same failed component it is obvious what the issue is.

[quote=Ravij;10668193]haha.. i posted just that smilie over at m3f and got an infraction...

lame.....

Originally Posted by Ravij

haha.. i posted just that smilie over at m3f and got an infraction...


In the last three weeks, Ive seen several threads created by old and new vf customers expressing there experiences with vf. which is good but it makes you wonder why? Is Nik begging his customers to post positive reviews?

And now VF-E has posted this thread? Are sales down this month?

ya me too, wonder who is crying to the mod's.

Originally Posted by deltasleep

You need the list again? I thought you would have the list at work. Here is a quick few I can think of.

Ravi...you blamed it on a catch can..the real cause poor or no tune.

Drippabmw...300 miles on kit..cause poor or no tune.

T Pham motor blew just after install..no safty measures built in, poor or no tune.

So the question is Nik who out of these 3 people I just named did you help out like AA and HPF have..Both of those vendors stood up and helped their buyers out. A company is not graded on it success's it graded on how they handle customers in need. Don't side step the question, these three people spent over $10,000.00 with you. How did you help them out?

We could talk about all the parts you had me buy that I didn't need, or your recommended clutch that destroyed my transmission to the point of needing replacement. That little beauty could have cost me $9,000.00 had I not pleaded with the service manager to warranty the transmission.

Thats odd, your last outburst with RaviJ stated that there were 5 other motors in addition to Ravi's which totals 6. But now you have dropped that to just 3 ?

Can you explain how you deduced DrippaBMW or Tpham's car had no tune? and if you examined their engines or ECUs to determine the cause of failure? Do you have actual confirmation of what you are saying or it is just assumption based keyboard analysis?

Nik im curious when you are going to realize you arnt getting anywhere and to just not post?? Your just fighting and making it worse.

I dont think he is begging people to post good stuff about vf because more then good I see bad post. All I see now is my idle is ****ed up and my car stalls sometimes since VF kit, ive seen alot of post about this idle problem, that would drive me crazy. You get what you pay for and the VF kit is cheap compared to other kits so of course its not going to be as good as the rest.

Nik just stop because your only bringing VF down with each post you put up. I never see hubert on here arguing with everyone like you. Id figure you would know how to run a business better then that. Honestly I dont know about the VF kit, I only saw it at bimmerfest in 08 and im just happy you guys finally cleaned up that ugly intake manifold from the first model. again Im bias in the vf vs other kits, alot of the problem is the users that dont install them right im sure, and or factory parts going out and such. I did not dislike VF until i started reading all the crap you post. IMO you guys do need some safty meausures in place so people would know when its running lean and such, maybe you should call hpf for some help cuz if my car run's lean id get a siren and the car cuts timing to save the motor.

Again......you have not heard me say a word in all these vf threads which tells you I dont have anything against VF, but its just gotten out of hand and you are the one making them look bad, not the kit.

This is an AWESOME POST. 100% agree sometimes people are way to quick to blame the vendor

Originally Posted by InDiGlOM3

Nik im curious when you are going to realize you arnt getting anywhere and to just not post?? Your just fighting and making it worse.

I dont think he is begging people to post good stuff about vf because more then good I see bad post. All I see now is my idle is ****ed up and my car stalls sometimes since VF kit, ive seen alot of post about this idle problem, that would drive me crazy. You get what you pay for and the VF kit is cheap compared to other kits so of course its not going to be as good as the rest.

Nik just stop because your only bringing VF down with each post you put up. I never see hubert on here arguing with everyone like you. Id figure you would know how to run a business better then that. Honestly I dont know about the VF kit, I only saw it at bimmerfest in 08 and im just happy you guys finally cleaned up that ugly intake manifold from the first model. again Im bias in the vf vs other kits, alot of the problem is the users that dont install them right im sure, and or factory parts going out and such. I did not dislike VF until i started reading all the crap you post. IMO you guys do need some safty meausures in place so people would know when its running lean and such, maybe you should call hpf for some help cuz if my car run's lean id get a siren and the car cuts timing to save the motor.

Again......you have not heard me say a word in all these vf threads which tells you I dont have anything against VF, but its just gotten out of hand and you are the one making them look bad, not the kit.

Of course he is going to post, he ownes VF and has every right to as people are tarnishing his name. Wouldn't you do the same if someone was dragging your name through the mud!
I think the other guys are the ones who need to give it a rest. We are adults and need to start acting like it.

Originally Posted by hubert@VF

Sometimes users can post up looking for help on a supercharger kit or talk about their experience or to complain about their car not making the "advertised power". This can easily be misconstrued to tarnish the product reputation. As a supercharger kit manufacturer, we often feel that it is our responsibility to help our customers by educating them with the diagnostic information. In many situations customers can usually uncover possible installation errors or failed OEM components, if they keep a cool and open mind. Staying open minded and not blaming the aftermarket product as a first gesture, is usually the most beneficial way to approach problem solving. Today at VF-Engineering's R&D facility, we encountered one such experience at first hand:

Why not always??? I dont want to get into a bashing war (this is not the intention) as I dont have any experience with VF, but why would you say you often feel the responsibility to help your customers?

Back on topic...

I have a call in to Bosch to let me know if there's a functional difference between the $75 Bosch replacement and the $180 BMW (made by Bosch) part.