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Old 05-06-2017, 11:12 PM   #21
orb
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gutted with a ZF automatic
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:10 AM   #22
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He sounds like the kind of individual that hates the ideal of a manual transmission and finds it antiquated. I'm sure he'd be happy at Mercedes or Volkswagen. I'd also be surprised if he even knew how to drive a manual.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:30 AM   #23
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Lol at the 450 hp limit argument. It's more the customer base who for the most part only care for the numbers on the spec sheet being more impressive.

The only time I would not choose manual is if it would be professional racing. That's the only time numbers take precedence over experience.

I still hope the m2 remains a drivers car and not a stats wh0re
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:54 AM   #24
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I'm sure the the argument from a business perspective is definitely there though. Probably many many millions in designing & testing only to serve a handful of douches on E46F. It's just reality.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:02 PM   #25
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Manual transmissions require almost zero R&D though. They pretty much just buy an already existing one. These companies spend hundreds of millions if not billions developing each new generation of auto and the manuals have been the same for, what, 30 years?
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:04 PM   #26
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Yeah you're right, they're probably just doing this out of spite.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:16 PM   #27
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They still tinker with them constantly, be it for better feel, for better performance, etc. Hate to turn this into another s2000 mention thread, but the AP1 transmission is widely regarded as the best manual transmission ever fitted to a vehicle...to this day it is still one of the best....until the AP2 came out, and Honda changed out brass synchros for carbon ones, and the performance was even better. The design may not change, but the guts often do. Dealing with ever increasing power also requires quite a lot of redesigning, as parts need to be more stout but still fit inside a case X big.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:30 PM   #28
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I recently met a guy with a really nice S2000. I hope to drive it soon to compare that with the stick in my 128i. Hopefully it doesn't ruin my car for me.
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Old 05-07-2017, 12:50 PM   #29
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It's MUCH more precise and "snickier" than BMW shifters, which feel a bit rubbery by comparison. I always warn people about driving mine though....my shifter is modified with an aerospace carbon steel with a melonite coating with a 16 micron grind on all sphericals, and it's shorter than stock making it feel absolutely incredible...once people drive mine they feel like they are rowing a boat with theirs. Stock S2000 is amazing though, even the RSX feels very nice as well. Honda shifters are really pleasant in general though.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:13 PM   #30
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Interesting question for the car guys here....how many of you, if available out of 3 options a, 10 Speed PDK style, 7 speed manual, or, a 7 speed sequential would choose a sequential box in your sports car?
A true sequential is more like a motorcycle, where you have a ratcheting cam shaft that move the gears to engage. BMWs SMG was a misnomer, as it was the same box as the manual but moved the same rods to engage the gears. A true sequential has to go through a gear to get to the next. SMG didn't have to.

Either way, from my perspective, a DSG/PDK or non clutch sequential is the same as an automatic. I never disliked an automatic because they were slow or robbed more power. I disliked them because they were less fun. I enjoy being part of the equation. I feel accomplished when I execute a perfect heal-and-toe downshift. I enjoy feeling the clutch take up and comparing that to the response of the car.

So given the choice, I prefer a manual every time.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:05 PM   #31
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What's the cheapest way I can make my e46 M3 shifter feel like an S2K?
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:49 PM   #32
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Buy an S2K and put an E46 M3 shifter on it

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Old 05-07-2017, 05:41 PM   #33
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Manual transmissions require almost zero R&D though. They pretty much just buy an already existing one. These companies spend hundreds of millions if not billions developing each new generation of auto and the manuals have been the same for, what, 30 years?
The transmission might not require a ton of investment but the system as a whole certainly does. Spending millions in making sure everything works, getting supply contracts, maintaining inventory both of components and finished goods, tooling the factory to support both, making sure service technicians are trained on both, etc, etc all costs a lot of money. It's not a one time deal 30 years ago and it all still works.

You of all people should know these things...
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:58 PM   #34
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Ok so is he saying that the ~2013 M5's transmission can't handle the power it has? Or that it's a terrible transmission?

Or is he saying he's a ****ing nance sent by BMW to feed bullshit to its customers?

Someone better tell the tractor trailers that their gearboxes "may not be strong enuff" to handle the 2,000+ lbs of torque.
Go ahead and put a tractor trailer gearbox in a sportscar... That's like wondering why automakers try and limit the weight of a car when there are trains out there.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:30 PM   #35
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The transmission might not require a ton of investment but the system as a whole certainly does. Spending millions in making sure everything works, getting supply contracts, maintaining inventory both of components and finished goods, tooling the factory to support both, making sure service technicians are trained on both, etc, etc all costs a lot of money. It's not a one time deal 30 years ago and it all still works.

You of all people should know these things...
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Go ahead and put a tractor trailer gearbox in a sportscar... That's like wondering why automakers try and limit the weight of a car when there are trains out there.
That is exactly the logical conclusion I was going for. U GHODDIT!
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:13 PM   #36
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The transmission might not require a ton of investment but the system as a whole certainly does. Spending millions in making sure everything works, getting supply contracts, maintaining inventory both of components and finished goods, tooling the factory to support both, making sure service technicians are trained on both, etc, etc all costs a lot of money. It's not a one time deal 30 years ago and it all still works.



You of all people should know these things...


Oh for sure but it's still a lot less than a new automatic. Like many times cheaper. Probably an order of magnitude.


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Old 05-07-2017, 09:36 PM   #37
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That is partially the reason why everyone is basically using the ZF box with just their own mounting plate.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:28 PM   #38
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It's MUCH more precise and "snickier" than BMW shifters, which feel a bit rubbery by comparison. I always warn people about driving mine though....my shifter is modified with an aerospace carbon steel with a melonite coating with a 16 micron grind on all sphericals, and it's shorter than stock making it feel absolutely incredible...once people drive mine they feel like they are rowing a boat with theirs. Stock S2000 is amazing though, even the RSX feels very nice as well. Honda shifters are really pleasant in general though.
What engine mounts do you have?
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:30 PM   #39
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The best ones, stock.
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:05 PM   #40
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The best ones, stock.
I can't imagine the stock mounts lasting very long with the extra torque from the turbo.
Does the shifter visually move when you do an in gear pull?
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