Has anyone done anything with their Vanos units when adding boost to their cars? Been looking at the DrVanos but was wondering what else is out there, recommended and why?
There has been many cases of late model M's that had their exhaust tabs sheared off.Well I spoke with Raj from Beisan Systems a few moments ago and he has some very interesting things to say about the S54 Vanos.
Basically from what I gathered there was an earlier BMW euro engine design that had the general "Exhaust Tab" clearance set lower than the current S54 that uses the exact same setup minus the difference in clearance. The S54 tab clearance is higher which appears to cause more rattle and risks failure of these tabs. Raj is developing a sleeve kit to solve this and should be released soon.
In addition the bolts on the Intake side I believe are a common issue with rattling loose.
The solenoid failure is also another issue.
I believe he said the seals aren't the biggest issue but may as well replace them while we're in there.
From what I can summarize, a rattle kit, seal kit, solenoid kit, and some thread-locker on the the bolts for exhaust/intake sides is probably the best solution. I've linked this thread in an email to Raj so he can hopefully comment on it and reduce the amount of phone calls he gets as he's just in the process of finishing this up atm for product release.
And from what I can gather at a significantly lower cost than the Dr.Vanos kit which from what others have said is extremely overpriced for a basically stock OEM unit that has just been cleaned and could possibly yield the "Ticking timebomb" effect later.
Delete the VANOS and have your cams re-ground with a wild turbo profile :excited::excited:Has anyone done anything with their Vanos units when adding boost to their cars?
Rob can you more accurately describe the "ticking" sound that you said your engine was making after the high HP Dyno pulls? The reason I ask is that I have an HPF stage 2 and I'm hearing maybe a similar sound to what you describe. What I hear is a ticking or knocking when the engine is cold, after it warms up the sound is almost completely gone but I'm still concerned and have been wondering what to do about it. HPF and Lutz had one hell of a time trying to sort out tunning issues with my car, they finally got it all worked out and its been running perfectly but I'm wondering if all the dyno time may have damaged something internally. It kinda sucks cause the car runs so nice now and the power delivery is perfect on all maps but I'm affraid to push it to hard for long stretches knowing that sound is there and fearing I endup with a failure similar to yours.
Your input is greatly appreciated.
It was originally thought to be in the valve train, so I paid to have the valves adjusted. Obviously, the noise continued. Mine seemed just opposite of yours in the fact I had no noise when I started it cold, but after about 20 seconds it would start ticking. Many people heard it, but nobody really had any good idea of what it was. I don't know if a hairline crack in the rod that failed could have been the noise, or if it was something completely unrelated. It wasn't near loud enough to be a rod bearing or wrist pin, but definitely louder than your average valve noise. Hope that helps a little.
I also have a stage 2 with exactly the same ticking sound your describing,goes away when warmed up. I was going to pm Rob the same exact question so thank you. I have inquired about the noise with a few mechanics,John from hpf being one of them, he said its normal with their kits, something to do with vanos and lack of lubrication. Another very experienced bmw mechanic said it is piston pin slop, I think ?. Anyways I have been aprehensive whenever i get into boost for fear something is going to blow and then i read what happened to Rob:facepalm:
It's the vanos...talk to beissan systems about it...its normal for every single M3 out there...unless of course it is retardedly loud. The exhaust hub tabs have been known to break taking out many an engine...thus far there has not been a single Vanos attributed failure on an HPF car...but many many on stock M3's. Tonnes of info on this on m3forum. Go here...phone the guy and talk to him about it...he has a fix. http://www.beisansystems.com/
thanks Kenton,i hope your right. The thing is my car didnt make the ticking noise until after the turbo kit was installed so I guess we will see. I am familiar with beisian and there remedy, about 3k If I remember correctly.
Mine made a little more noise once I got a fully built engine...vanos completely pulled off and reinstalled with new seals...standard HPF built engine treatment.
Beisan is supposed to be coming out with a shim kit for the exhaust hub issue as it basically rattles around in there...could be the knocking noise associated with it...mabe different idle characteristics because the AEM is controlling it causing more rattle.
I was told to expect a noisier motor after an HPF kit, especially if it is a "built" motor. We had some louder than normal noises so rebuilt the vanos partially with Besian Viton orings and did a careful valve adjust. The valves WERE out a bit BTW.
This the first catastrophic rod failure so far on an HPF built motor?
I was concerned about a lot of things at first and all of them answered or attended to. I am not worried about the rods in spite of Rob's misfortune. (Deeply sorry for your loss, Rob)
Off topic: someone recently asked me why our heads are not oringed. I told him because :
1) It is not necessary with the new custom ARP head bolts
2) and/or because there simply is not enough space to properly o ring them(this is was a guess)
There is always stronger rods. Get some corillo HD's. Although they are more expensive than the crowlers.
I was stage 2, so all stock internals. I know of one built that bent a rod, but it didn't break. I don't know what the cause was.
What you describing is vanos noise,i had it on all my M3s and its louder when the engine/oil is cold...
Lets start a new thread with his information, specially since this is Maria's thread. I have the same symptom but only when its cold, after it warms up it goes away. Car is running strong as always. I was mainly thinking it was a valve adjustment issue, which I am going to do here soon. I didn't think VANOS would just act up when cold, then go away when warmed up. I figure the noise would be constant and louder as the car revs.
Does the noise continue once the car is warmed up? Is it louder as it revs higher? Does it only do it while cold?
Same questions as Kenton:
Does the noise continue once the car is warmed up? Is it louder as it revs higher? Does it only do it while cold?
It's louder when cold obviously...still there when warm. I believe it's different idle characteristics with an aftermarket ecu vs the stock dme...the noise you hear is in the Vanos via the hubs clicking back and forth from accel/decel when controlling the idle. Seriously if you are worried call Raj at Beisan...or email him...he's a pretty nice guy to talk to...and he will make you want to fix the issue inherent with all S54's...and he doesn't overcharge like Dr.Vanos. He rebuilds the solenoids in the vanos (does it properly!!)...provides a sealing kit and he is probably nearing release of his shim kit. He's been testing it out for a while now. I'll be doing the full rebuild just before summer most likely.
Edit: If memory serves me correctly I don't think I notice it as much on cold starts as the rpms are higher and my cold idle is rock solid...my idle hot with AC on is rock solid...my idle hot with AC off is a bit wobbly. I've had the idle touched up once and it most likely needs a bit more fine tuning to make it perfect...now we're only talking like 50rpm of sway and its barely noticeable...but I notice every little thing when it comes to how my beast runs. The only time I really notice the clicking is when the car is warmed up and I can hear the rpm sway a bit with the clicking. Again lots of videos of the vanos rattle on youtube.
Also looks like there is axial play in a bearing that can cause the clicking as well...I'm more worried about the exhaust hub tabs though as those suckers have destroyed many an S54 when they've broke.
Thanks Kenton, this is definitely useful information for all of us and thanks for keeping it in one thread. That other thread started to get me worries specially since I am not the only one that has the ticking noise. Lets see what he has to say about our similar symptoms.Thread Revival and Posts concerning Vanos:
So to summarize...things that are not so hot in the Vanos:
- Exhaust Hub Breaking (Beisan Solution in the works)
- Intake Cam Bolts Loosen up (Threadlocker with Z4M Cam bolts iirc)
- Vanos Solenoid Pack (Beisan Solution available and Dr.Vanos...Beisan is rebuilt and Dr.Vanos is overpriced new OEM with same inherent design flaw)
- Vanos Seals (Beisan Solution available)
Sent an email to Raj@Beisan asking what he recommends for a full overhaul on the S54 vanos and I expect he'll be back to me today.
Good find Rob, not sure how we missed that one. Also, hope the best for your motor and glad you at least have most of the parts if you just want to put her back together to a Stage 2. The biggest problem us HPF owners have is that we don't driver our cars enough, lol.Just stumbled on this in the M3 section. Seems relevant to this thread.
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=893984
Check the video out below, is that what your sounds like? Keep us posted once you receive your car back to see if the problem was resolved.My ticking was driving me nuts! So I ordered Dr Vanos today, the exhaust hub, and upgraded bolts. My car is at HPF, awaiting the new Vanos system.
Mine only has 45k on it, sad, so sad! I'll give him a call and see what he recommends.most failures are > 60k Miles so you won't know until you get more miles on it.
Congrats on the M3.
The S54 vanos internal piston seals are made of the correct materials and aren't failing.
Here is some info on three E46 M3 vanos related problems.
The vanos can fail and cause the DME to generate fault codes. The codes are usually for the intake side. They include:
Fault 0x43 (67) DME: Inlet vanos, advance valve
Fault 0x48 (72) DME: Inlet vanos, retard valve
Fault 0xB8 (184) DME: Function, inlet vanos
There are two common failures that can cause the vanos codes. The vanos solenoid pack can fail and the exhaust sprocket vanos oil pump driver teeth can break.
Vanos solenoid pack is #2 in this parts diagram.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BL93&mospid=47714&btnr=11_2993&hg=11&fg=15
Exhaust sprocket vanos oil pump driver teeth are part of #2 in this parts diagram. The driver teeth can be seen on the exhaust sprocket outer component.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BR93&mospid=47708&btnr=11_3004&hg=11&fg=25
Here is a method to distinguish between the two failures. Reset the codes and start the engine. Let the car idle for 3 minutes. If the codes reappear while the car is idling the problem is likely the exhaust sprocket driver teeth are broken. If the car has to be driven for a period before the problem recurs and the fault codes reappear then the problem is the vanos solenoid pack.
The solenoid pack failure is in most cases intermittent and the car has to be driven for some period, sometimes hundreds of miles, before the problem reappears. But there are some cases where the failure is permanent and the codes appear immediately after starting the car.
In the case where the problem and codes reappear just after starting the car the valve cover needs to be removed to acquire and definitive diagnosis. If the exhaust sprocket driver teeth are broken then that is the fault. If the teeth are still present then the solenoid pack is the fault.
Although the BMW ETK (parts catalog) shows the vanos solenoid pack is discontinued, it is available under a new part number, 11-36-7-839-180, $600-$700.
Replacing the vanos solenoid pack is simple. 2 short and 3 long bolts at the top of the vanos mount the solenoid pack onto the vanos. For access, the fan shroud exhaust side air scoop needs to be removed (2 rivets). There is a sealing plate with O-rings that seals the solenoid pack and vanos connection. The OEM O-rings on the sealing plate are made from Buna and thus fail. Therefore the sealing plate needs to be replaced when replacing the solenoid pack. The sealing plate is #7 on the vanos parts diagram referenced above. The mounting bolts should be tightened evenly to 5 Nm.
If you replace your vanos solenoid pack please send your old unit to Beisan Systems. We are investigating rebuilding the solenoid pack and providing it as a more economic solution.
If the exhaust sprocket teeth are broken then the sprocket component with the driving teeth needs to be replaced. Unfortunately this component is not available separately from BMW and needs to be purchase as a set with the rest of the exhaust sprocket components, #2 on the sprockets parts diagram referenced above.
The timing is disturbed in the installation process and special tools are needed to reset the timing.
A rattle occurs that emanates from the valve cover front. The rattle is due to loose sprocket bolts. This usually occurs on the intake sprocket but can apparently also occur on the exhaust sprocket. The sprocket bolts that come loose are #5 on this parts diagram.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BR93&mospid=47708&btnr=11_3004&hg=11&fg=25
The #5 bolts are mounted underneath the outer sprocket component, so they can***8217;t be seen when the valve cover is remove. The outer sprocket will be found to have some movement.
The bolt threads will be damaged and need to be replaced.
The timing is disturbed in the repair process and special tools are needed to reset the timing.
Here is a forum post thread with pictures of the loose and damaged bolts.
http://pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&t=570171&r=8910474&hm=83097
The E46 M3 has a different vanos than the standard E46's.
On the E46 M3 the main vanos failure is the solenoid pack. It's #2 on this parts diagram.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BL93&mospid=47714&btnr=11_2993&hg=11&fg=15
There is a new parts number for it, 11-36-7-839-180, $600-$700.
You also need to replace the sealing plate, #7. It has Buna O-rings and they're failing.
You replace the solenoid pack by simply removing the 5 bolts on top of the vanos, 3 long, 2 short.
Here are the common codes you would receive.
Fault 0x43 (67) DME: Inlet vanos, advance valve
Fault 0x48 (72) DME: Inlet vanos, retard valve
Fault 0xB8 (184) DME: Function, inlet vanos
A more rare problem with this vanos is the exhaust camshaft sprocket oil pump driver teeth can break. This is part of #2 on this parts diagram.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=BR93&mospid=47708&btnr=11_3004&hg=11&fg=25
When this happens the vanos will stop working because it loses oil pressure.
You can take off the valve cover and see the teeth are broken.
This vanos can also encounter a rattle. Sprocket mounting bolts are coming loose, usually on the intake sprocket. They are #5 on the above parts diagram.
Hope this helps.