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Forced Induction Forum
Discuss supercharging, turbocharging and even nitrous and water injection here.

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Old 06-10-2017, 12:48 PM   #1
indee321
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Is just water / meth enough?

So if i run a supercharger at a max of 4psi ( possibly a bit higher when my headers , high flow cats and bigger air intake are taken into account) i'd like to cool things down. Im not interested in any performance gains that cooling may bring , although from what i can gather power is normally gained, im only cooling to try and maximise longevity of engine and ensure no issues with knock.

Im new to supercharging but my research is telling me that the best set ups would combine an aftercooler with meth / water jet. This seems to be standard for higher psi systems. the only drawback, as im sure you all know , is that i would loose as much as 1 -2 psi from my already modest boost and so im hoping the consensus is water / meth alone wil be fine at my low boost level.

I have been advised that as long as i have a proper tune cooling is not 'really' needed at all with such a low boost and whilst i'm sure this would work, my priority here is to protect my engine as well as is reasonable. So what are your thoughts guys ?

Ive also been told ( or my understanding of what i was told) that water / meth setups do not inject while car is running at cruise speeds.. is this correct and would that be a potential problem.. how could i work around it ?

Its also been suggested that two nozzles would be a far better 'system' ? If this is the case , how would that work in terms of placement etc.. and would i need it ?

Thanks

Last edited by indee321; 06-11-2017 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:10 PM   #2
rkneeshaw
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I'm kind of wondering why you would even bother if you're only going to do 4spi.

Non-intercooled ESS kits run at 6psi all day long and even that is conservative to accommodate all climates.

I would understand using meth injection in place of an intercooler if you were running 8spi or more.

Most guys want to configure their meth kits to only spray when under heavy load because in most cases (using a bypass valve) your supercharger is not creating boost when cruising and it would be a waste of the meth spray. When you really need meth (or an intercooler) is when you're at WOT and your supercharger is making peak boost, since compressing air generates heat which both reduces air density and makes pre-detonation more likely (which is dangerous for the motor)

Depending on the meth kit, you can have the meth spray triggered based on boost level, fuel injector duty cycle, or MAF readings, and some controllers are viriable controllers that allow you to gradually increase the spray from zero to full spray as the engine load increases.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:44 PM   #3
t651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indee321 View Post
my priority here is to protect my engine as well as is reasonable.
This statement alone needs to be quantified.

I know of people running low boost with less reliability than people running high boost. A bad tune regardless of boost (or NA) has contributed to more engine failures than boost alone ever has.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:53 AM   #4
indee321
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You'll have to forgive me , im right at the very beggining of researching and learning about superchargers and FI.. what im actually intending to do is the hyde's motor works install ( the guy from new zealand). Im using a toyota sc14 as the supercharger. ive since changed my plan and will be decreasing pully size which should give me 5 - 6 psi ( with all my mods accounted for). Didnt realise the ESS kits dont have any kind of cooling involved... could this be because they are more efficient than the setup i am intending and therefor dont get as hot ? I will be overdriving my roots supercharger a little and so from what i can gather blowing hot air into manifold is bad for enginr in a number of ways and of course the possibility of knock.. i would be happy just spraying water as my only aim here is minimise potential issues.

I also suspect ( i dont know) the reason many people running low boost have reliability issues is that they are told they dont Dont NEED to fit things ( like coolant , bypass valve etc) at such a low boost so dont bother and then have issues? I dunno.. im kinda wanting to hear yes at least water injection certainly wont do any harm and you should def fit a bypass valve etc.. but of course if you guys say dont bother i'd like to know why.. as i say im learning i dont assume i know anything..

Can anyone tell me or give a link to a guide as to how to relocate my throttle body before the sc and fit ( i think) a dummy one to manifold ? Again research is telling me this is a good idea but its worrying me as mine is drive by cable ( 1999 )

Also ive been told a bypass valve isnt needed if i move the throttle body before the sc but i dont think thats the best set up and would like to include one.. would a bypass valve simply run back to the pre sc piping if i do not fit an intercooler ?

As far as trying to quantify preserving engine longivity .. i guess i could give cooling as an example.. now ive been told ess runs 7 psi without cooling im reassured. But now the concern about longevity kicks in and i want to make you guys aware its a roots sc which will possibly run hotter than ess and ive boosted it a little.. so hotter again.. would water spray be a good consideration with this is mind, my instinct is yes.. again whats your opinions

Last edited by indee321; 06-13-2017 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:27 AM   #5
rkneeshaw
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The Stage 1 ESS kits (6 or 7 psi) dont have cooling, but the stage 2 kits (8 or 8.5psi) do. ESS uses a liquid-air intercooler in their kits.

I dont think spraying meth would cause any harm at all, just dont spray too much or you'll lose power, you want to spray enough to cool the intake charge but not too much that the meth doesnt evaporate fully before combustion. Its the evaporation of the meth that causes the cooling effect.

To take full advantage of meth, you spray it and then increase your ignition timing to take advantage of the cooler intake charge. But, if you do that, be sure to consider safety measures with your tune so that if you run out of meth on the highway the tune can be changed on the fly to reduce that advanced timing and keep your motor happy.

Like was said earlier, getting the tuning right is more critical than the boost pressure, at least on a stock motor, and with limits up to probably 8psi or so. You get higher than 8psi and then cooling and a few other things are probably as important or more important than tuning alone....
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:52 AM   #6
t651
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A bypass valve is mainly used to stop the supercharger making boost when it doesnt need to.
eg at idle or at cruise under low load. It's there to stop you boosting all the time and thereby lowering intake charge (and fuel to cool the charge) back to NA when its not needed.
Its certainly advisable to have one mainly for long term operation and heat soak.

The SC14 doesn't actually need a bypass as it has a magnetic engaged clutch.
So you can electronically turn off when it doesnt need to boost.

Note that fuel itself is also a cooling agent. Once ignition of the charge is starts, any excess fuel unburnt in the charge cools the cylinder head.
Coolers/water-meth are employed when fuel alone can no longer cool the compressed charge down enough and start to cause pre ignition (ie ping).

ESS, Active Autowerke stage one kits both dont have intercoolers and yet provide 2 year warranties with the product.
Granted they are on fairly conservative boost levels on somewhat efficient superchargers, but make of that what you will.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:13 PM   #7
indee321
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Thanks for your replies all usefull info.. . i wont be able to utilsise the magnetic clutch of the sc14 unfortunately. Going down to a 103mm pully wont allow it. Shame because i quite liked the idea of trying to have two maps , one for with and one for without sc in use. Although, if i could try to find a way to make a bmw brain make use of the clutch to electronically switch off and on the way a toyota would it might motivate me to keep it... hmm prob still go with the 103mm fixed pulley to be honest lol.

So can i ask , is a bypass valve and a blow out valve the same thing? If not , which one would you suggest is better for my set up and why..
Also , from what ive learnt today the throttle body can be moved but involved adding to and extending the cable. Throttle responce suffers a little? I guess that depends how well the job is done. Can anyone offer advise on this ?

So , with a water / meth or just water set up, is it an issue that the spray stops when cruising or decreasing speed and if it is, how do i get over it.. sorry if thats been explained already i didnt pick up on it..

Last edited by indee321; 06-13-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:28 AM   #8
indee321
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^bypass valve recirculates air back to before sc a blow off valve vents to atmosphere.. see learning lol..
Im gonna go with a bypass valve being better for me because a blow off valve could be considered a vacuum leak ?
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:32 AM   #9
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Any furhther answers to my questions greatly appreciated
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