E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > E46 BMW > General E46 Forum

General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-12-2017, 02:02 PM   #1
moomar55
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Manchester
Posts: 16
My Ride: E46 328ci
BMW 328 mystery!

Hi guys!

I've had my 2000 E46 328ci for just over 2 years now with around 115,000 miles on it. For the majority of my ownership, it's had the roughest idle, along with a big loss in bottom end torque. Along with that comes the crap MPG and intermittent P0170/P0173 code, which only happens on motorway cruising.

Annoyingly, everything happens once the car warms up, which makes me think its once the closed loop is engaged. In open loop, the car idles and runs fine!

Recently, thats changed so that now its just running poorly all the time, and my bottom end torque has almost completely gone.

I've worked a LOT on BMW's, including having my own e30 in which I swapped an M52B28 into and changed everything on the car except the tranny. This car however is cursed. Its had this issue for as long as I can remember, and NOTHING i try seems to remedy it. The symptoms might soften but they ALWAYS come back. Here is a list of everything i've done to the engine:

New CCV
New VCG
Vanos Seals + Gasket
Intake Boot
Changed all the hoses around the back of the manifold
Tried 2 alternative MAFs
Pre-Cat O2 Sensors
Removed Manifold and checked the gaskets > Like new!
Cleaned throttle body and ICV
Checked coils > Each one is affecting the idle so they're all working
DISA holding vacuum
REGULAR services (Oil + Filter + Fuel Filter + plugs)
Cooling system overhaul


In addition to this, I checked the Fuel pressure on the rails, and its holding its pressure for ages before slowly dropping, which is normal afaik. The alternator failed about a year and a half ago, which was probably just the voltage regulator, but at the time my mum was borrowing the car so she took it to a garage and they just swapped it out for a new one.

Whats odd is that over 3000rpm the car seems fine and responsive, anything below and it just sucks. I don't want to influence any ideas, but part me still has doubts about the Vanos, even though there's no loud noise coming from the unit.

Recently, its also developed a noise like a grunting noise, which seems to come from the centre of the engine (think the section under the rails), but it ONLY happens on Idle. As soon as the revs increase, the noise is gone.

I would appreciate any input! Im wary that it could be sensors but there are no codes. I even have INPA and nothing is coming up which suggests sensors that have failed.

I'm literally at my wits end with this car. Its been nothing but headache since I bought it, but I have a bit of an obsession with BMW's, and I would hate to have just suffered with this car without getting to the root cause of the issue. I am literally on the very edge though as it's really doing my head in

Rant over. Thanks for reading!

Last edited by moomar55; 05-12-2017 at 02:13 PM.
moomar55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Ads by Google

Guests, get your FREE E46Fanatics.com membership to remove this ad.
Old 05-12-2017, 02:41 PM   #2
jfoj
OEM ///Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 22,861
My Ride: 330CiC, M5, X5, E93
Need to see Freeze Frame data and warm idle Fuel Trim values.

I have some ideas, but want to see some data before I comment.

Read these threads over:

Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
jfoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 04:06 PM   #3
moomar55
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Manchester
Posts: 16
My Ride: E46 328ci
jfoj!

Glad this caught your attention! I've been reading all of your writeups for ages and they're absolutely great! I've tested and tried the majority of the things you've spoken but with no luck!

I went ahead and tried to get some data logged. I used a program made to capture data from EDIBIAS and plot it.

I've attached the CSV to my gdrive in this folder. All the data was when the car was up to temp. It was a mixture of cruising and stop start. In the folder aswell there is an xlsx file where i've plotted them on a graph for ease.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8...GxtaE8xbVFZbzA

The columns on the csv are RPM > Injector trim (EINSPRITZZEIT_WERT) > Air mass. Please let me know if this is sufficient! For some reason, I couldn't split it into LTFT and STFT it just gave out a single value, but a lot of it is in German so its hard to find your way round at times!

You can see the RPM dropping everytime it idles, and its only happening when the RPM's are dropping from below 3000 or so.

Its also worth noting that I cleared all the shadow and current error data. Ill have a look in the morning and see if any have re-appeared.

Thanks!
moomar55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 04:49 PM   #4
Mr Podman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: N.A.
Posts: 1,083
My Ride: E46 Coupe
I also owned a 2000 E46 328ci (in the U.S.)

There was a period of time when it started running badly and it turned out to be the exhaust camshaft position sensor. Later the intake camshaft position sensor also failed. Replacement was a fairly easy DIY fix that solved the problem. BMW calls these parts "pulse generators".



podman
Mr Podman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 07:34 PM   #5
shanneba
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,180
My Ride: 2003 330Ci
Have you actually checked the DISA valve? When you had the intake manifold off.
The actuator may be holding vacuum but if the flapper is disconnected/broken inside it can cause the type of codes/drive-ability/mileage issues you describe.
Especially the poor low end and normal 3000 + rpm performance.
It would not cost anything besides time to actually pull the DISA and check.

One other thing to keep in mind with the 323/328 models is the Fuel Filter does not have the pressure regulator built in.
They use a 3/2 way valve. to control the fuel flow to the injectors and a separate fuel pressure regulator.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_0737

The Vacuum line on the F connector may actually be a vent for the fuel pressure regulator.
If the diaphragm is leaking in the regulator you may get additional fuel through that hose into the intake.

See this document for more info-
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/at...8&d=1401378544


Code:
MS42 Running Losses Fuel Supply: 
The ECM controls the operation of the Running
Losses Fuel Circuit by activating the by-pass solenoid. The solenoid is energized for 20
seconds on engine start up to supply full fuel volume to the fuel rail. After 20 seconds, the
solenoid is deactivated and sprung closed (the by-pass is opened). This reduces the
amount of fuel circulating through the fuel rail and diverts the excess to return through the
fuel pressure regulator.
The fuel injectors are provided with regulated fuel for injection but the returned fuel by-passes
the engine compartment fuel rail thus lowering the temperature and amount of vaporization
that takes place in the fuel tank.
The solenoid is also activated momentarily if an engine misfire is detected. This function
provides full fuel flow through the fuel rail to determine if the misfire was caused by a lean
fuel condition. The solenoid is monitored by the ECM for faults.
__________________
Join BMWCCA
Discounts on new and CPO cars.
Most Dealers offer a parts discount, BMP Design 10% off

Last edited by shanneba; 05-14-2017 at 07:56 PM.
shanneba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2017, 11:17 PM   #6
NZ00Z3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 22
My Ride: 2002 318ti
You may be trying to track down multiple issues. A couple of guesses:

- The difference between open and closed loop fuel control is the use of the O2 sensors. Use INPA to check your O2 sensors. See if they are working correctly. Also use them to investigate a possible blockage of the CAT's.

- Low torque below 3,000 rpm is usually associated with the VANOS. You've done the seals and sensors. Have you used INPA to check that the VANOS solenoids on both sides are working? Under Activation/VANOS , there are a number of functions where you can enter a set point and see it the VANOS reaches the set point.

- The DISA also switches around 3,000 rpm and is what gives you the performance boost when you have stuffed VANOS seals. It sounds like your DISA is working OK.

Hope this helps.
NZ00Z3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2017, 03:58 PM   #7
moomar55
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Manchester
Posts: 16
My Ride: E46 328ci
Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanneba View Post
Have you actually checked the DISA valve? When you had the intake manifold off.
The actuator may be holding vacuum but if the flapper is disconnected/broken inside it can cause the type of codes/drive-ability/mileage issues you describe.
Especially the poor low end and normal 3000 + rpm performance.
It would not cost anything besides time to actually pull the DISA and check.

One other thing to keep in mind with the 323/328 models is the Fuel Filter does not have the pressure regulator built in.
They use a 3/2 way valve. to control the fuel flow to the injectors and a separate fuel pressure regulator.

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=13_0737

The Vacuum line on the F connector may actually be a vent for the fuel pressure regulator.
If the diaphragm is leaking in the regulator you may get additional fuel through that hose into the intake.

See this document for more info-
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/at...8&d=1401378544


Code:
MS42 Running Losses Fuel Supply: 
The ECM controls the operation of the Running
Losses Fuel Circuit by activating the by-pass solenoid. The solenoid is energized for 20
seconds on engine start up to supply full fuel volume to the fuel rail. After 20 seconds, the
solenoid is deactivated and sprung closed (the by-pass is opened). This reduces the
amount of fuel circulating through the fuel rail and diverts the excess to return through the
fuel pressure regulator.
The fuel injectors are provided with regulated fuel for injection but the returned fuel by-passes
the engine compartment fuel rail thus lowering the temperature and amount of vaporization
that takes place in the fuel tank.
The solenoid is also activated momentarily if an engine misfire is detected. This function
provides full fuel flow through the fuel rail to determine if the misfire was caused by a lean
fuel condition. The solenoid is monitored by the ECM for faults.
I haven't actually checked the 3/2 way valve as I don't know where it lives! I will do over the weekend when I get the chance.

I have however checked the DISA and its working exactly as it should. I close the flapper and it stays shut when I have my finger over the vac hole. It also actuates correctly at 3000rpm and I get no engine hesitation spraying carb cleaner around the O-Ring.

Any more info on that 3/2 way valve let me know. When I did the fuel filter I didn't notice it but i'll have another look as I can't find anything like it in the engine bay, other than the FPR that sits on the rail itself.

NZ00Z3: I just replaced the O2 sensors pretty recently, and they seem to be reading properly. Fluctuating with relation to the car. I will try and graph them if I can.

I was also thinking about the solenoids. I will try that in INPA thanks for the suggestion! Ill again test it and let you know what happens!

Mr Podman: I also suspected the camshaft sensors but wouldn't they throw a EML or a code atleast? I will check them and see maybe I could borrow one from a local breakers or something see if it makes any difference!

Its also worth noting, after driving about I checked the shadow memory and it seems to have thrown a few weird ones at me. Notice the water temperatures and battery voltages? (Sorry about the crap photos it was cramped when I took them!)

Another thing, i've noticed some of the torque come back after clearing all errors, but the rough idle is still there and I can feel the car is still hesitating a bit. Its just not as smooth as it should be.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I really appreciate the input!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20170514_195624.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	105.5 KB
ID:	655058   Click image for larger version

Name:	20170514_195628.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	86.4 KB
ID:	655059  

Last edited by moomar55; 05-15-2017 at 03:58 PM.
moomar55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 01:04 PM   #8
Mr Podman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: N.A.
Posts: 1,083
My Ride: E46 Coupe
Faulty exhaust cam sensor gave me intermittent CEL. Faulty intake cam sensor did not.


podman
Mr Podman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 02:08 PM   #9
moomar55
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Manchester
Posts: 16
My Ride: E46 328ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Need to see Freeze Frame data and warm idle Fuel Trim values.

I have some ideas, but want to see some data before I comment.

Read these threads over:

Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501
Hi jfoj,

Did you manage to check out the data I posted above? Interestingly the CEL came back on as I was cruising again. It happens when after about an hour of motorway cruising, 5th at around 50/60mph.

Let me know if there are any more diagnostics to do. I'm going to try and smoke the car again and see if there are any leaks but I have covered almost everything on your post (which has been my holy grail throughout this ordeal).

Thanks!
moomar55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
e46, idle, m52, rough, torque

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2016 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use