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Old 08-12-2013, 03:14 PM   #1
DillonMpower
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Exclamation mechanic vs forum the CHALLENGE

so i guess i should start with a bit of background, 2 days ago i received a call from my mechanic after he finished a clutch fluid swap, diff fluid swap, transmission fluid swap, transmission guibo, transmission poly urethane mounts, and poly control arm bushings (UUC.) before i gave the car to the mechanic it ran like butter extremely smooth. Now i have a check engine light(p0492 & p0492) which i hear is nothing to fret(i had this before i took to mechanic, i have been driving with these code for a month).

I currently have 174,000 miles on a 5sp MT 2001 vert 330ci.

Now here is where the problem starts. once i got in the car and backed out 15 feet i did NOT notice anything to crazy, but as soon as i got to level ground and drove down the street(100 yards) i quickly realized there was something VERY wrong with my car. (note the mechanic did not touch the engine he only worked on what I mentioned earlier) so i drove right back to him as said WTF.

HERES the SYMPTOMS

especially on cold starts but even after being drivin these symptoms are slightly-less, slightly!

-engine wobbles(have you ever been in limp mode or a camshaft sensor goes out, it is almost the same exact feeling)
-rough idle(once warm it is not as rough)
-the engine sounds likes it struggling a little (it sounds louder like its under stress slightly)
-performance is not really hindered, it does not rev as fast but this difference is minute. (but it does not not feel like a BMW should not smooth at all)
-felt like i was running with no oil.
-the vibration happens whether the clutch is engaged or not (thats how i narrowed it down to the engine) but it vibrates the most when the clutch is engaged and i let off the power to coast, once RPMs hit 2200 -2000 i get this massive vibration/misfire feeling (not good!)
- accelerating past 2000 RPM i get that same vibrations, just not as harsh and it happens through out the rev band but decreases significantly around 3000.(this is why i think it is a vacuum leak and at higher rpms the car sounds like it really has to work)

so we went one drive, he said it felt normal. i made him check a few things. he mentioned it sounded like my cats, or maybe a vacuum leak in the exhaust because he used the old seals.

I then asked him if the wobble was "created" by the poly bushings and poly trans mounts. Since those bushing where completely destroyed i figured the engine mounts are also completely destroyed. and since the others we swapped with polys (way better then stock) then maybe now the weak spot in the car is the engine mounts, and thats what i am feeling since everything else is tight as a drum then engine is just vibrating like crazy.

he said he had no idea, and unfortunately i had to got work so i drove on to work and back still no problems i checked the cel and still nothing has changed.

this is where the challenge comes in. my mechanic absolutely hates the forums he said there is so much misinformation its not even funny. i dont believe so, any since he has no idea what i could be i figured maybe some of you may know. lets see if i can figure this out before i take it back to him to check it out this weekend.

Last edited by DillonMpower; 08-12-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:21 PM   #2
Mango
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Your mechanic sounds dumb. This is evidenced by the fact that he thinks your car "feels normal" and by him reusing the old exhaust seals.

Your car has an intake vacuum leak. He probably disturbed something when installing the mounts. You will get more vibration with poly, but certainly no CEL, rough idling, or "wobbly" idle characteristics.

Look at every vacuum connection.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:25 PM   #3
DillonMpower
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thank you mango! i agree, although one thing! the cel was not caused by this, i have had that code for a month or 2 with no issues. with that being said i dont think it changes anything. my question now is where to start ? swap out exhaust seals then move towards the cats then eventually to the engine?
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:28 PM   #4
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mechanic vs forum the CHALLENGE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Your mechanic sounds dumb. This is evidenced by the fact that he thinks your car "feels normal" and by him reusing the old exhaust seals.

Your car has an intake vacuum leak. He probably disturbed something when installing the mounts. You will get more vibration with poly, but certainly no CEL, rough idling, or "wobbly" idle characteristics.

Look at every vacuum connection.
+1 sounds like you have a massive vac leak.


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Old 08-12-2013, 03:38 PM   #5
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Since you just recently got your car, give it a while for new codes to pop up. You might have some ghost codes appearing.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:38 PM   #6
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1. Suggest you and your mechanic read the first link below in my signature.
2. Suggest that the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose be carefully inspected.
3. Check the vacuum hose from the SAP Combi valve that runs along the valve cover and connects under the rear of the intake.
4. If the mechanic disconnected the rear O2 sensor wiring, he likely swapped the connectors?
5. Connect an OBDII tool and read the fuel trim values at idle once warmed up. If the fuel trim valve are about +2% you need to find the vacuum leaks, there will likely be MANY!
6. If the mechanic removed the driveshaft which is likely:
a. Did he check the center support bearing?
b. Did he mark the driveshaft to rear flange before he removed it?
c. Did he make sure the Guibo is installed properly?
d. Did he make sure the drive shaft centering bushing was reinstalled at the back of the transmission flange?

Was the exhaust system removed or taken down for the Guibo replacement?

I am guessing some of the vibration may be driveline or exhaust system vibrations based upon your comments, however, it is very hard to tell from the other side of the Interweb!
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Last edited by jfoj; 08-12-2013 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
1. Suggest you and your mechanic read the first link below in my signature.
2. Suggest that the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose be carefully inspected.
3. Check the vacuum hose from the SAP Combi valve that runs along the valve cover and connects under the rear of the intake.
4. If the mechanic disconnected the rear O2 sensor wiring, he likely swapped the connectors?
5. Connect an OBDII tool and read the fuel trim values at idle once warmed up. If the fuel trim valve are about +2% you need to find the vacuum leaks, there will likely be MANY!
6. If the mechanic removed the driveshaft which is likely:
a. Did he check the center support bearing?
b. Did he mark the driveshaft to rear flange before he removed it?
c. Did he make sure the Guibo is installed properly?
d. Did he make sure the drive shaft centering bushing was reinstalled at the back of the transmission flange?

Was the exhaust system removed or taken down for the Guibo replacement?

I am guessing some of the vibration may be driveline or exhaust system vibrations based upon your comments, however, it is very hard to tell from the other side of the Interweb!
1.great information
2.i will check that now!
3.i will check that as well.
4.wont this cause a code?
5. I dont know if my basic (cheap) will tell me that, will the onboard? will check out
6. i have no idea.
7. the exhaust system was removed for the guibo replacement.

you know what sucks, everything he did feels great, the front steering feels great, the my shifts are amazing and trans are WAY SMOOTHER! Easy 40% better. I am pissed because this seems like a totally different problem. well once i see him this week i will have him confirm on #6.

my big question is if it is indeed a vacc leak is it dangerous to drive on it ?

Last edited by DillonMpower; 08-12-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:52 PM   #8
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try vacuum lines per this:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=430048
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:16 PM   #9
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First, your mechanic has a huge advantage - he/she can actually see and drive the car.

Second, why did you change fluids without first (or at same time) fixing whatever is causing your codes?

Your "perceived" problems could be due to several causes. I put "perceived" in quotes because you perceive them as a problem, but your mechanic does not. Hard to tell who is right. You had them replace worn out rubber transmission mount with poly. This alone will cause more vibration to be transmitted to body. You did not change engine mounts at the same time. This would change the way vibrations are transmitted to body, and hence change your perception. If the change is due to a leaky exhaust that should be easy to diagnose. Start car and look/feel for leaks. Given you had preexisting engine codes (likely due to aging plastic and rubber) the change you sense could be "coincidence", or associated with small motions in components due to nearby repairs, making small leaks bigger.

Edit: you should not try to make this a challenge. If anything perhaps work as a team. If you make it a challenge you will likely loose since you will have to choose a "winner", and unlikely anybody here will come fix your car for you. Did you ask the mechanic to fix your codes? If not, what did you ask them to fix/do. It is likely your mechanic is not the best BMW mechanic in the country, but it is likely they are capable and honest and know more than you about your car.

Edit 2 - sorry: you asked - my question now is where to start ?
First I'd check for obvious exhaust leaks that may or may not have been caused by reusing old seals (I would not call reusing these dumb, I'd call it frugal, if they are in decent shape they can be reused and not leak)
Second I'd get rid of the codes. Maybe that should go first.
Third I'd replace engine mounts with ones that match the transmission mounts

Last edited by dknightd; 08-12-2013 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 06:52 PM   #10
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Think of it this way. Your engine is essentially supported by three points, engine mounts and transmission mount. Much like a three legged stool. I you change one worn out rubber foot on your stool with poly, your butt dynometer will perceive a difference in the way your stool feels. pun intended - sorry
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:40 PM   #11
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It's hard to tell if you're over-reacting or if there's genuinely a problem. For starters, of course the car is gonna vibrate more. There's a reason why bushings are made of rubber - to isolate vibration from the cabin. If you're not ready to experience vibrations - why did you get poly bushings?

As far as you saying "car doesn't rev as fast" while at the same time saying "performance isn't hindered" and then saying something as ignorant as "felt like I was running with no oil" all I can gather is that you really don't have any idea what you're talking about. I feel sorry for your mechanic because he has to deal with someone like you.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavi Mike View Post
It's hard to tell if you're over-reacting or if there's genuinely a problem. For starters, of course the car is gonna vibrate more. There's a reason why bushings are made of rubber - to isolate vibration from the cabin. If you're not ready to experience vibrations - why did you get poly bushings?

As far as you saying "car doesn't rev as fast" while at the same time saying "performance isn't hindered" and then saying something as ignorant as "felt like I was running with no oil" all I can gather is that you really don't have any idea what you're talking about. I feel sorry for your mechanic because he has to deal with someone like you.
dick head, if you read what i actually said (-performance is not really hindered, it does not rev as fast but this difference is MINUTE) meaning during non hard acceleration or regular daily driving the performance of the car is normal with more engine vibration, now if i put it in neutral and rev the car then maybe it takes a quarter of a second longer to get there hence the word MINUTE or if you do not understand, that means small or minimal. i feel sorry for the people you respond to because they have to waste there time reading your comments which are not helpful what so ever. BE. MORE. LIKE. MANGO.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by dknightd View Post
Think of it this way. Your engine is essentially supported by three points, engine mounts and transmission mount. Much like a three legged stool. I you change one worn out rubber foot on your stool with poly, your butt dynometer will perceive a difference in the way your stool feels. pun intended - sorry

I was thinking this as well, I was not sure if the poly transmission mount could create this issue or not, because it was doing this while the clutch was not engaged I figured it was specific to the engine but was not completely sure. I am waiting for my shipment to arrive with the engine mounts.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post
First, your mechanic has a huge advantage - he/she can actually see and drive the car.

Second, why did you change fluids without first (or at same time) fixing whatever is causing your codes?

Your "perceived" problems could be due to several causes. I put "perceived" in quotes because you perceive them as a problem, but your mechanic does not. Hard to tell who is right. You had them replace worn out rubber transmission mount with poly. This alone will cause more vibration to be transmitted to body. You did not change engine mounts at the same time. This would change the way vibrations are transmitted to body, and hence change your perception. If the change is due to a leaky exhaust that should be easy to diagnose. Start car and look/feel for leaks. Given you had preexisting engine codes (likely due to aging plastic and rubber) the change you sense could be "coincidence", or associated with small motions in components due to nearby repairs, making small leaks bigger.

Edit: you should not try to make this a challenge. If anything perhaps work as a team. If you make it a challenge you will likely loose since you will have to choose a "winner", and unlikely anybody here will come fix your car for you. Did you ask the mechanic to fix your codes? If not, what did you ask them to fix/do. It is likely your mechanic is not the best BMW mechanic in the country, but it is likely they are capable and honest and know more than you about your car.

Edit 2 - sorry: you asked - my question now is where to start ?
First I'd check for obvious exhaust leaks that may or may not have been caused by reusing old seals (I would not call reusing these dumb, I'd call it frugal, if they are in decent shape they can be reused and not leak)
Second I'd get rid of the codes. Maybe that should go first.
Third I'd replace engine mounts with ones that match the transmission mounts
i agree that is a very possible to the first statement (a bunch of little problems working in conjunction to make it seem like one big problem. my mechanic was leaning towards this by the time i left.

as for the challenge its not an actually challenge, every time i see my mechanic he is constantly saying how forums are riddled with misinformation. i dont see it that way, which is why if I am able to figure the problem out with the help of everyone on the forum, i can rub it in his face. that being said he has been a mechanic for 30 years on every car imaginable. mostly porsche, audi, and BMW
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Your mechanic sounds dumb. This is evidenced by the fact that he thinks your car "feels normal" and by him reusing the old exhaust seals.

Your car has an intake vacuum leak. He probably disturbed something when installing the mounts. You will get more vibration with poly, but certainly no CEL, rough idling, or "wobbly" idle characteristics.

Look at every vacuum connection.
How could he disturb something to cause a vacuum leak by replacing the transmission mounts? That doesn't make sense unless you mistook them for engine mounts.

OP, none of what he did sounds like it could cause any of the perceived new problems. I would start with engine mounts and diagnosing the cause for those codes.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:35 PM   #16
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i agree that is a very possible to the first statement (a bunch of little problems working in conjunction to make it seem like one big problem. my mechanic was leaning towards this by the time i left.

as for the challenge its not an actually challenge, every time i see my mechanic he is constantly saying how forums are riddled with misinformation. i dont see it that way, which is why if I am able to figure the problem out with the help of everyone on the forum, i can rub it in his face. that being said he has been a mechanic for 30 years on every car imaginable. mostly porsche, audi, and BMW
If you knew as much as a mechanic, you'd realize how riddled with garbage and misinformation these (and other) forums are. I would be willing to bet that less than 8% of posts on here are useful, and that's in the tech forums... not OT. If he's been a mechanic for 30+ years, he can afford to lose you as a client... you may be able to afford to lose him too, I don't know.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:39 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
How could he disturb something to cause a vacuum leak by replacing the transmission mounts? That doesn't make sense unless you mistook them for engine mounts.

OP, none of what he did sounds like it could cause any of the perceived new problems. I would start with engine mounts and diagnosing the cause for those codes.
no, they most definitely transmission mounts, as well as control arm bushings. this is why mango and i believed it maybe exhaust seals bad. because those are the only seals he touched. unless there are other seals that would required being taken off durning removal of the guibo. i dont think the work he did caused this unless the transmission mount is forcing more stress on the engine mounts but when they were all the same mounts the engine was as smooth as butter. I have engine mount en route should be here by the end of the week, just in time to see my mechanic.

also the codes i believe are completely not related to this vibrating problem

Last edited by DillonMpower; 08-12-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 08-12-2013, 10:50 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 2003 325i View Post
If you knew as much as a mechanic, you'd realize how riddled with garbage and misinformation these (and other) forums are. I would be willing to bet that less than 8% of posts on here are useful, and that's in the tech forums... not OT. If he's been a mechanic for 30+ years, he can afford to lose you as a client... you may be able to afford to lose him too, I don't know.

very true, although i had been doing my own repairs for 2 and half years with the help and useful tips here on this forum. there is no way i would have been able to do half the crap with out the help of forums. in fact my girlfriend has a MINI and there is complete lack of GOOD mini forums which makes it difficult to find information that would be so readily available. that being said if you have enough money to have a mechanic then i guess you can say screw the forums, but still there is no way your mechanic can know everything all time.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:00 PM   #19
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I think I agree with a previous poster about the "perceived" effects of these repairs and what you see as a problem. I hope you don't take offense to this, but I have a hard time believing you that your car ran as smooth as butter with lean engine fault codes, 174k miles, needing a drive shaft flex disc, control arm bushings and obviously other repairs.

I think the poly transmission mounts are indeed adding more vibration than your worn rubber mounts... but the other problems were always there but you were just now looking harder after a recent repair.
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:06 PM   #20
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There are several tubes, pipes etc down near the motor mounts that can cause bad run-ability issues..

The problem with forums from the mechanics perspective is that they vary so much in accuracy..
I get the same crap all the time if I fix someones computer,, I change a power supply,, and a week
later they have a virus and blame me.. I totally gave up helping anybody on computer repairs..

Its all relative,, I vote vacume leak and possibly a disturbed connection somewhere..

Dave
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