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Old 09-15-2015, 11:35 PM   #1
Hhavoc
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Cold Start / Rough idle, not vacuum, nothing ordinary or usual to blame

I apologize - I know there's too many of these, but I didn't want to hijack another poster's thread, and the resolution to my issue may take a different direction. I've read every thread I could find here and elsewhere, and have eliminated many of the common diagnoses for my Lean Code conditions, leaving me frustrated without answers.

TL;DR - lean codes, reluctant cold start, initial rough idle, not caused by usual causes.


I recently purchased an '05 330i, with 150k miles, and have done a major overhaul of most "wear" parts. Despite this, I get poor cold starts in the morning, accompanied by rough idles, as well as P0171 and P0174, the standard "lean" codes.

Lots of Preventative Maintenance work done: (I've done a lot more than listed here, but only included what seemed relevant.)

new Bosch Pre-cat O2 sensors (and checked wiring)
all new BMW CCV pipes/hoses/separator
new BMW Intake Manifold gasket
new BMW Throttle Body gasket
new BMW Oil Housing gasket
new BMW Oil cap & gasket
new BMW Dipstick washer
scrape out / replace DISA gasket, tested >45 degrees vacuum
new Vacuum lines (all)
new Bosch fuel pump / sender
new Mahle fuel filter
new BMW upper / lower boots / F-connector
new BMW brake booster hose
new BMW Valve Cover (old one was warped, leaked oil)
new BMW Valve Cover gasket, seals,
new Vanos teflon rings / new seals kit
new BMW Vanos Oil line
new Bosch Coils
new NGK Spark Plugs
new air filter
new VDO MAF sensor*
6 reconditioned Siemens Fuel Injectors (Mepah.com)

Flushed: Coolant, Oil, Power Steering, Transmission
Cleaned: Oil Filter housing, entire Intake Manifold, Throttle Body, ICV, DISA
(also Walnut-blasted engine Intakes)

Built a smoke machine (Glow plug & baby oil), tested at upper boot under decent pressure with heavy white smoke, this led to the replacement of the Valve cover. No more leaks are detectable. I've now re-checked 3 separate times. New CCV tested using Manometer on dipstick, checked out fine.

*Finally started to believe it was the MAF, stupid me, tried to save $$ and ordered a cheap chinese MAF off eBay. That led to an insanity of codes: P1510 (Idle Speed Control Valve Stuck), P0175 / P0172 (System Too Rich), DSC warning light, Transmission warning light, brake system warning (traction control). Car went into limp mode with reduced power. Also insane negative LT trim.

So that came out. Ordered a VDO (OEM) unit, and after some adjustment time, warm idle LT trim returned to positive, now around 10-11%. Just throwing standard P0171 / P0174.

It's not a detectable vacuum leak. It's not the pre-cat O2 sensors. Not the CCV. It's not dirty parts of the Intake system. I've listened for any Brake Booster leak in driver footwell, (heard nothing), and tested that adequate brake vacuum remains 5 minutes after shut-off. It's not the MAF. It can't be leaking injectors, as they would throw rich codes, and besides, exhaust pipes are not blackened. No more oil leaks visible around Valve Cover.

I'm not upset that I've thrown money at parts, as I wanted to replace most of this stuff anyway, but I'm grasping at straws to rid myself of the Cold Start / rough idle, and constant lean codes.

I have an ELM OBDII unit, and I've been logging spreadsheets of data with the OBD Fusion app, but I'm lost trying to pinpoint any obvious culprit.

This is rare for me: I never post and ask for help, I always google and search until I find my problem and test out solutions that worked for others.
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Old 09-15-2015, 11:50 PM   #2
jfoj
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Need to see the following:

Freeze Frame info

Log for cold start engine idle for 4 minutes

Log for warm idle for 4 minutes

Log for steady highway cruise 4 minutes

Any other symptoms?

How is the engine idle when warm?
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 09-15-2015 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 09-16-2015, 10:19 AM   #3
Hhavoc
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Thanks for the quick response! I'll need to run it a few times to get freeze frame, as I cleared the codes and they're currently pending. When I get that data, (plus log) do I just paste info here? Dropbox link? Thanks.
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Old 09-16-2015, 03:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hhavoc View Post
Thanks for the quick response! I'll need to run it a few times to get freeze frame, as I cleared the codes and they're currently pending. When I get that data, (plus log) do I just paste info here? Dropbox link? Thanks.
DropBox share URL pasted back here is best.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 09-17-2015, 01:50 AM   #5
Hhavoc
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Still waiting on Freeze frame, P0171/P0174 stuck in Pending from me clearing codes a few days ago, and I need an SES light to pull FF data.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ld%20Idle.xlsx
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rm%20Idle.xlsx
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...0Idle%202.xlsx
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...0Cruising.xlsx

Engine cold-started more easily today (less cranking), although it was warm out, (76F), and not so wet. Upon starting, engine revved up to 1,000, then settled down to 725-750rpm range. After this, I turned on the AC which caused it to labor, though not to the point of stuttering.

To your question: Warm idle is generally good, unremarkable.

Other symptoms - I had misfires until I replaced coils, also put in Iridium IX NGK plugs.

Also of note, after I did the upper intake walnut blasting (which had the engine open for days), the cylinders were dried out, and I had a pretty severe case of "bore wash". Had to pour a capful of oil into each cylinder through spark plug openings, manually crank engine to coat the cylinder wall, and even then it took a lot of cranking to finally start.

I haven't checked compression yet, but don't know if my symptoms warrant that as an item of suspicion for this particular problem.

Other stuff? Can't think of anything glaring. She's a beaut, especially with the transmission filter/flush, although car is badly in need of new suspension / bushings, plus front bearings.
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Old 09-17-2015, 07:25 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hhavoc View Post
Other symptoms - I had misfires until I replaced coils, also put in Iridium IX NGK plugs.

Also of note, after I did the upper intake walnut blasting (which had the engine open for days), the cylinders were dried out, and I had a pretty severe case of "bore wash". Had to pour a capful of oil into each cylinder through spark plug openings, manually crank engine to coat the cylinder wall, and even then it took a lot of cranking to finally start.

I haven't checked compression yet, but don't know if my symptoms warrant that as an item of suspicion for this particular problem.
These engines have low tension piston rings and bore wash down is COMMON one these engine. Probably not due to the engine be open and sitting for days, it was probably due to starting the engine and moving the car into the shop or garage. Starting these engines and not letting them run for 3-5 minutes or running them around the block is the kiss of death for cold start misfires or even no start conditions. Additionally battery cranking Voltage is important for the ignition to trigger the coils multiple times per ignition cycle, exactly like a MSD (Multiple Spark Discharge) system.

Suggest you read over my comments in this thread. Everything from the CCV and hoses, valve cover gasket, OFHG, vacuum hose, fuel pump and fuel filter need to be changed in these cars due to their age. TRUST ME on this.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?p=16727145

The good news is some of these cars are now being picked up by people that LISTEN and willing to do the Preventative and Maintenance repairs to make these great cars again.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 09-17-2015, 09:52 AM   #7
Hhavoc
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That was a great thread. Seems I have had the right idea replacing every rubber hose and many plastic items part of CCV / vacuum system. In that spirit, I did replace entire CCV, every engine bay rubber vacuum hose, both intake boots, air filters, fuel pump, fuel filter, all intake gaskets, plus OFHG, valve cover gasket (and valve cover!). MAF Is brand new Siemens/VDO. I tested oil dipstick with manometer, pulled 6 inches water column difference.

Are you going to need freeze frame data before log data trim values can tell their story?

Thanks immensely.

My battery is just 2 years old, seems to have good cranking voltage. Thanks for the explanation on the bore wash, I'm sure you're right.
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Old 09-17-2015, 10:29 AM   #8
jfoj
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LTFT are stuck at 10%+ both for warm idle and steady cruise.

My initial feeling is either the current MAF is the problem, if you have the original put it back on and see if anything improves.

Possibly the O2 sensor wiring is swapped bank to bank, this is VERY easy to have happen. This can cause other symptoms as well. I think I covered this pretty clearly in a few links that you should have found in something I posted.

How long ago was the CCV replaced? There were some defective CCV valves on the market as well.

Change your measurements/MAF reading on the tool to Metic or g/s (Grams/Sec) this is what all my references are in.

Something is definitely off here.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 09-19-2015, 12:36 PM   #9
Hhavoc
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I just checked removed both covers and carefully checked the O2 sensors - when I disconnected precat Sensor 1 (front, looking into engine bay), it threw a P0030 (Bank 1 Sensor 1). Likewise with precat Sensor 2: P0050. So I feel I can comfortably rule that out, although I really appreciate the list of things to check.

Both the factory MAF prior to the eBay cheapo replacement, (refunded yesterday!) and the subsequent VDO (OE) MAF sensor are keeping the car in the "best" state (minimal trouble codes) it's been able to reach, which is no codes other than P0171/P0174. I'd be surprised if both OE MAFs were problematic, but I suppose it's within the realm of possibility, although I don't think that's ultimately going to be it.

I replaced the CCV in April, separator and all hoses/pipes, and during my vacuum leak troubles, checked every single connection, to make sure they were all clipped and seated properly. In advance of this thread, I spent an hour with my smoke machine, letting the smoke pressure build and inflate my latex-rubber-glove-intake adapter into a balloon in the hopes of teasing out any additional vacuum leaks. None are apparent, and it released clouds of smoke under pressure when I detached it.

So, the last possibility you mentioned was a CCV that was part of a bad batch. My replacement CCV kit (plus cold-weather dipstick vent hose) was Genuine BMW, what would be the best way to test it? I thought the manometer test was sufficient, but I certainly defer to those (like you) that know far more than I do.

If you know of any other thread to check, or things I may want to investigate next, I'd be truly grateful. As it is, thank you so much for your attention and suggestions thus far.

PS - still showing my P0171/P074 codes as "pending", so no freeze frame data
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Old 09-19-2015, 03:04 PM   #10
jfoj
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Did you listen to the brake booster and/or watch the Fuel Trims while you pumped the brake pedal?

Did you pull the oil fill cap while smoke testing and make sure the crankcase was full of smoke before reinstalling the cap?

You indicated you put one of the Siemens/VDO MAF's back on. Can you get a new Log and post it.

Also try to Log 4 minutes at warm idle and 4 minutes at a steady highway cruise hopefully on a pretty level road.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 09-19-2015, 10:21 PM   #11
Hhavoc
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Yes, on the listen to the brake booster. It holds vacuum five minutes after shut-off, as well.
Yes, pulled the oil cap and white smoke came out.

The logs I provided are actually with the new Siemens/VDO MAF. I have older logs (same P0171/P0174) with the original Stock MAF, but unfortunately I broke it after removing it to try out the cheapo eBay one. Still, was about time for a new one, anyway.

From reading other threads, and some of your other posts, I'm starting to lean toward thinking that rather than a vacuum leaking air in, I should instead look at a the possibility of fuel leaking out. Does that sound consistent with high (~10) LT trims both highway and idle?

I have a new fuel pump, fuel filter, (and new fuel hose connecting gas tank to fuel filter) and I got new "reconditioned" fuel injectors, but it seems possible I could have a supply line leak, or an injector leak. I may try to check Advanced Auto Parts tomorrow and try to borrow a fuel pressure gauge, see if I have proper pressure (3.5 bar), and if the drop after 20 minutes is within BMW spec (no more than 0.5 bar drop).

Should I also be concerned my high LT trims could be caused by a faulty fuel cap?
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Old 09-19-2015, 11:37 PM   #12
jfoj
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Fuel leaks will not cause Lean codes, especially leaking/dripping injectors.

If the fuel cap would allow air in properly, it would be VERY hard to remove and it could actually cause the fuel tank to partially collapse.

I wanted the to know did you have the oil fill cap removed while smoke testing to make sure the crankcase was purged of air. Then reinstall the oil fill cap and look for smoke leaks, especially around the valve cover.

While monitoring the Fuel Trims, LT & ST, engine at warm idle, remove the oil fill cap and watch the Fuel Trims, report back the behavior and/or post a Log with the data. Pull the oil fill cap for about 30 seconds if Logging so the change can be properly located in the Log.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 10-17-2015, 09:50 PM   #13
Hhavoc
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Haven't forgotten - just been busy. So, I spent 2 hours with smoke machine, filling crankcase with smoke, and hunting for leaks endlessly. Nothing, NADA, zilch

However, on a hunch, I checked the back of the manifold, and I did find this:

Will try to attach a log of trim changes when pulling the oil cap, but I did just clear codes, since I had MAF disconnected during vacuum leak checks.
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Old 10-18-2015, 01:41 PM   #14
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You just found your problem, those caps were the cause. Suspect that will be the very thing you were looking for.
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Old 11-01-2015, 09:11 PM   #15
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Where exactly are those caps located

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Old 11-01-2015, 09:20 PM   #16
Hhavoc
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Theyíre on the back (firewall side) of the manifold. Had to contort and squeeze my hand to get to them with just the airbag removed, but it is possible with a skinny arm. And just an update: no more Lean Codes. I am still waiting to use it on a longer (at least 1 hr) highway trip, as that is the condition I recollect when the problem code appeared. Iíll probably end up doing that within the next week, but until then, Iím feeling pretty good about this problem being put to rest.

Thanks
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:23 AM   #17
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Along with those two caps back behind the intake, there are three short vacuum hoses that control the SAP system. Those hoses may look to be a Okay, but if you touch them and find that your fingers turn black , replace them , they have dry rotted and will let air into the engine. Heck replace them every 4 years anyway. Lots of heat builds up back there and it rough on these hoses
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolman View Post
Along with those two caps back behind the intake, there are three short vacuum hoses that control the SAP system. Those hoses may look to be a Okay, but if you touch them and find that your fingers turn black , replace them , they have dry rotted and will let air into the engine. Heck replace them every 4 years anyway. Lots of heat builds up back there and it rough on these hoses
2005 version doesn't have those hoses, it's an electric valve control.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:32 AM   #19
jfoj
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Gotta be careful with the different version of the SAP system.

It seems E46 XI and M cars never had the wideband O2 sensors and the MAF based SAP system.

I recall the wideband O2 sensor and MAF based SAP system was brought in around 3/2003 on the non XI and non M cars.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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