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Old 01-12-2017, 01:21 PM   #21
Hateleydrift
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Originally Posted by Archbid View Post
Wow. You are throwing a lot of money on parts pretty randomly.

When your bearings go bad, you can diagnose by turning the hub and listening for noise. And a rack is expensive.

I didn't see end links, so you might inspect these. Can you rotate your wheels front to back? Vibration in the steering wheel like that really is most often the wheels. The only counter-evidence is that wheel vibration could be exacerbated by new control arms and bushings, not lessened.

You could also try lowering tire pressure to see if it changes the nature of the vibration.




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See above about the throwing money at parts randomly, it's kinda what I do. I like my cars feeling new and I get satisfaction from them driving like a new cars, and cost a fraction of the price.

Why would 2 different sets of wheels/tires give the exact same vibration? The chance of both sets of wheels/tires giving the same vibration at the same speeds is very small. Don't know why I need to keep explaining this.

Sway bar end links have been checked but not replaced, I doubt this one too, they looked pretty good, but its worth a shot. I'll just disconnect the front sway bar and go for a test drive to see if the vibration goes away. Might as well disconnect the rear while I'm at it for diagnosis purposes. Tire pressures really won't effect vibration, Ive run pressures form 60 psi to 12psi on drift cars, it really won't effect anything other then grip/contact patch and the "overall" spring rate(includes tire pressure) will be stiffer/softer by a small margin.

I've read somewhere a caliper dragging can cause this issue, anyone heard of that? I lubed the sliders when I did the brakes, wondering if it's the caliper piston that could be sticking...
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:33 PM   #22
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Vibrations are not usually due to loose suspension parts unless they are seriously unsafe loose.

Vibrations are due to things that are bent, out of round or out of balance.

Vibrations that are reduced due to suspension and steering component replacement is usually due to the fact that the new suspension and steering components dampen the vibrations. Bushings are like shock absorbs and can isolation and dampen transmitted vibrations.

Alignment issues will not cause a vibration unless the tire(s) wear unevenly to the point they are out of balance or out of round. An alignment will have little to no impact on reducing vibrations.

The FAR too overlooked way to identify tire, wheel and hub problems is just to get the tire off the ground and CAREFULLY watch the wheel and tire with your eye as it rotates.

You need to watch carefully for rim side to side and up and down movement. Often it is helpful to put a fixed reference up close to the rim and/or tire tread and watch for variations.

One thing that often gets overlooked on these cars are whether or not the wheels are centered on the hub. The wheels need to be centered by the hub, not the lug bolts and often the center bore of the wheel is either too big or too small and the wheel does not center correctly on the hub.

Another MAJOR pitfall and mistake is assuming Road Force Balancing will correct or find all problems, it DOESN'T. The Road Force machine is only as good as the tech using it.

I have seen the Road Force machine show 0 weight required and the wheel is bent and there are vibration IN THE ROAD FORCE MACHINE FROM THE BENT WHEEL!!!!! Not a problem with the machine, it is just not capable of detecting the bent wheel. You CANNOT put wheel weights on a bent wheel and make is roll round! It is not going to happen, a bent wheel needs to be straightened and/or replaced.

The other problems can be in the tires themselves. This is hard to explain, but you also have to look closely at the tire tread when spinning the wheel. Assuming the wheel is not bend, you need to see if the tread is walking side to side or trying to roll over the edge toward the sidewall.

The last thing that a Road Force machine can find, but the eye may not be able to is a tire or tires that have sat for a VERY long time and will not roll round. I had a set of tires that were on a car that have very low miles, but the car sat in a garage for close to 10 years on the tires.

Everything looked pretty good, but the car had a vibration no matter what you tired, finally after a long discussion with the customer after looking at the tire date codes, we found out the car has sat for 10 years. The freaking tires were square. Replaced all 4 tires and life was good, I feel sorry for the sucker that ended up digging with these tires out of the scrap tire heap!

Moral of the story, start with the basics, your eye is a better tool that anything you would pay for, use it wisely. I wish I would run into some more bent wheels, on someone else's car, so I could make some videos because the videos make is CRYSTAL clear what the problems are and are much easier to understand than trying to explain any of this.

Happy rolling!
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:34 PM   #23
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What brand FCABs did you use? I went through a similar experience with mine...replaced everything up front but vibration was still there. Then replaced the meyle FCABs with lemforders and vibration gone. Use one of these to test if one of your caliper is sticking or not:

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ing-60725.html
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:53 PM   #24
Hateleydrift
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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Vibrations are not usually due to loose suspension parts unless they are seriously unsafe loose.

Vibrations are due to things that are bent, out of round or out of balance.

Vibrations that are reduced due to suspension and steering component replacement is usually due to the fact that the new suspension and steering components dampen the vibrations. Bushings are like shock absorbs and can isolation and dampen transmitted vibrations.

Alignment issues will not cause a vibration unless the tire(s) wear unevenly to the point they are out of balance or out of round. An alignment will have little to no impact on reducing vibrations.

The FAR too overlooked way to identify tire, wheel and hub problems is just to get the tire off the ground and CAREFULLY watch the wheel and tire with your eye as it rotates.

You need to watch carefully for rim side to side and up and down movement. Often it is helpful to put a fixed reference up close to the rim and/or tire tread and watch for variations.

One thing that often gets overlooked on these cars are whether or not the wheels are centered on the hub. The wheels need to be centered by the hub, not the lug bolts and often the center bore of the wheel is either too big or too small and the wheel does not center correctly on the hub.

Another MAJOR pitfall and mistake is assuming Road Force Balancing will correct or find all problems, it DOESN'T. The Road Force machine is only as good as the tech using it.

I have seen the Road Force machine show 0 weight required and the wheel is bent and there are vibration IN THE ROAD FORCE MACHINE FROM THE BENT WHEEL!!!!! Not a problem with the machine, it is just not capable of detecting the bent wheel. You CANNOT put wheel weights on a bent wheel and make is roll round! It is not going to happen, a bent wheel needs to be straightened and/or replaced.

The other problems can be in the tires themselves. This is hard to explain, but you also have to look closely at the tire tread when spinning the wheel. Assuming the wheel is not bend, you need to see if the tread is walking side to side or trying to roll over the edge toward the sidewall.

The last thing that a Road Force machine can find, but the eye may not be able to is a tire or tires that have sat for a VERY long time and will not roll round. I had a set of tires that were on a car that have very low miles, but the car sat in a garage for close to 10 years on the tires.

Everything looked pretty good, but the car had a vibration no matter what you tired, finally after a long discussion with the customer after looking at the tire date codes, we found out the car has sat for 10 years. The freaking tires were square. Replaced all 4 tires and life was good, I feel sorry for the sucker that ended up digging with these tires out of the scrap tire heap!

Moral of the story, start with the basics, your eye is a better tool that anything you would pay for, use it wisely. I wish I would run into some more bent wheels, on someone else's car, so I could make some videos because the videos make is CRYSTAL clear what the problems are and are much easier to understand than trying to explain any of this.

Happy rolling!

Thanks for the input!

Makes sense about the other components dampening vibration, I see the light now...

I will definitely look very closely at the wheel rotating when I gat it back on the lift.

These wheels are hub centric and from ESM, who sponsors my drift car and I have purchased over 30 wheels from them that I use regularly with no issues. And the vibration did not change when I went form stock wheels to the ESM wheels. I do like the info on the balancing machines but if i have tried 2 different sets of wheels with no change wouldn't that rule out balancing as the issue?

Yep old tires are a no no, that's what caused the Paul Walker crash. That car had 6 year old tires and on top of that it's a monster of a car. My tires are brand new tires from my sponsor Achilles, I have gone through over 100 of these tires with no issues. Not saying there aren't mechanical defects in tires here and there, but again if I ran 2 sets of wheels and got the same vibration it would rule out a defected tire to be the cause.

Thanks again man, good troubleshooting!
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:56 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by generalvp View Post
What brand FCABs did you use? I went through a similar experience with mine...replaced everything up front but vibration was still there. Then replaced the meyle FCABs with lemforders and vibration gone. Use one of these to test if one of your caliper is sticking or not:

http://www.harborfreight.com/non-con...ing-60725.html
FCABs are lemforder, thanks!

Oh cool, thats a good way to diagnose a bad caliper. I already have one of those, time to got for a drive!

I might just mount a go pro in the wheel well and see if I can see anything, I need a sunnier less rainy day though...
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
I have seen the Road Force machine show 0 weight required and the wheel is bent and there are vibration IN THE ROAD FORCE MACHINE FROM THE BENT WHEEL!!!!! Not a problem with the machine, it is just not capable of detecting the bent wheel. You CANNOT put wheel weights on a bent wheel and make is roll round! It is not going to happen, a bent wheel needs to be straightened and/or replaced.
Its funny you say that, I would agree had I not been running a bent rim on the back of 350z for years with no issues, no vibration, no psi loss, nothing. It's like the bend is not even there. The bend is on the inner lip and its bent inwards about and inch. I understand that usually this is not the case but they can still work sometimes!
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:12 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Hateleydrift View Post
Yep old tires are a no no, that's what caused the Paul Walker crash. That car had 6 year old tires and on top of that it's a monster of a car.
Sorry, the Paul Walker crash was not "caused" by 6 year old tires. Chances are "new" tires would not have helped in this situation.

It was excessive speed on a road that was not a controlled or known surface. If you drift, you know what I am talking about.

I hate to say this, but nothing good is going to happen doing 100+ MPH on the streets, much less in town.

The highway is one thing, but you still cannot control the deer, moose, fox, coyotes, rabbits and so forth.

But what is done is done, hopefully people learned something and will think about what they are doing whether it be on the track or street.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:16 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Hateleydrift View Post
Its funny you say that, I would agree had I not been running a bent rim on the back of 350z for years with no issues, no vibration, no psi loss, nothing. It's like the bend is not even there. The bend is on the inner lip and its bent inwards about and inch. I understand that usually this is not the case but they can still work sometimes!
The majority of wheel bends are on the inside lip of the wheel. The wheel usually deforms inward toward the hub and will cause a low spot and often a pulling inward of the tire carcass and can cause the tread to be rolled toward the sidewall.

Bent wheels and bad tires on the rear of a car are usually much less noticeable than on the front of the car. I guarantee you if that bent wheel was moved to the front of the 350z, you would have noticed it in no time.

I used to deal with a 240z that we actually had to remove a front hub from so we could properly balance the wheels. Finally purchased a spare hub and kept it at the shop. The rack and pinion systems with few light weight components will not dampen any variations and send the sensation directly into the steering wheel.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:19 PM   #29
Hateleydrift
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Sorry, the Paul Walker crash was not "caused" by 6 year old tires. Chances are "new" tires would not have helped in this situation.

It was excessive speed on a road that was not a controlled or known surface. If you drift, you know what I am talking about.

I hate to say this, but nothing good is going to happen doing 100+ MPH on the streets, much less in town.

The highway is one thing, but you still cannot control the deer, moose, fox, coyotes, rabbits and so forth.

But what is done is done, hopefully people learned something and will think about what they are doing whether it be on the track or street.
Caused was the wrong word but the tires were most certainly a contributing factor. The driver was well skilled and under normal circumstances that may have not happened. I know the GT gets some lift off oversteer but nothing a skilled driver couldn't deal with. I really do think the main factor was old tires, just my opinion though.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:24 PM   #30
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The majority of wheel bends are on the inside lip of the wheel. The wheel usually deforms inward toward the hub and will cause a low spot and often a pulling inward of the tire carcass and can cause the tread to be rolled toward the sidewall.

Bent wheels and bad tires on the rear of a car are usually much less noticeable than on the front of the car. I guarantee you if that bent wheel was moved to the front of the 350z, you would have noticed it in no time.

I used to deal with a 240z that we actually had to remove a front hub from so we could properly balance the wheels. Finally purchased a spare hub and kept it at the shop. The rack and pinion systems with few light weight components will not dampen any variations and send the sensation directly into the steering wheel.
I run that rim on the from when I go to grip track days so I can run a 275 tire on all four corners. Never had an issue. It really doesn't vibrate, it's weird. I've had so many tire shops tell me I need a new wheel.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:28 PM   #31
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Caused was the wrong word but the tires were most certainly a contributing factor. The driver was well skilled and under normal circumstances that may have not happened. I know the GT gets some lift off oversteer but nothing a skilled driver couldn't deal with. I really do think the main factor was old tires, just my opinion though.
Sorry, speed and stupidity was the main factor here. The driver was not skilled enough to keep the car on the street at those speeds. Or look at it the other way around, no amount of skill could have controlled the car under the conditions it was being operated under.

A professional driver should have known better not to be hot dogging in town like he was.

Sorry, I call it how I see it. If the car would have been traveling 50-60 MPH things may have been fine, however, I doubt the car was going that slow.

Also most tracks and road courses do not have trees right along side curves and curbs along the road.

Some real race course could be different, however, they are carefully thought out, the road surfaces are monitored and the drivers can practice driving the road course.

Even the Baja 1000 has some course that you are supposed to follow, assuming you can see where you are going.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:43 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post

Vibrations that are reduced due to suspension and steering component replacement is usually due to the fact that the new suspension and steering components dampen the vibrations. Bushings are like shock absorbs and can isolation and dampen transmitted vibrations.
When I was researching to try help Yoits with his vibration (wheel-related), there was a common theme that replacing stock FCA/FCAB with Meyle actually increased the vibration, and were often blamed. I suspect that the worn out old components were not transmitting the vibration, or that the Meyle components were more rigid.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:51 PM   #33
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When I was researching to try help Yoits with his vibration (wheel-related), there was a common theme that replacing stock FCA/FCAB with Meyle actually increased the vibration, and were often blamed. I suspect that the worn out old components were not transmitting the vibration, or that the Meyle components were more rigid.
This can also be a factor, many speak about how Polyurethane bushings transmit more NVH, Noise, Vibration and Harshness. So yes, as you replace parts, but miss the source of the vibration, it can move, increase or decrease in intensity.

Depending on the conditions, new bushing are more rigid and tend to not allow as easy movement of suspension component. Think about leverage, the longer the lever, the easier it is to move something, but a tighter bushing may dampen and/or arrest a vibration or at least move the vibration to a faster speed depending on the situation.

But keep in mind if there is a real vibration, chances are the source will be a rotating mass and not caused by any of the specific suspension components, they just transmit the vibration/energy.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:35 PM   #34
Hateleydrift
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Sorry, speed and stupidity was the main factor here. The driver was not skilled enough to keep the car on the street at those speeds. Or look at it the other way around, no amount of skill could have controlled the car under the conditions it was being operated under.

A professional driver should have known better not to be hot dogging in town like he was.

Sorry, I call it how I see it. If the car would have been traveling 50-60 MPH things may have been fine, however, I doubt the car was going that slow.

Also most tracks and road courses do not have trees right along side curves and curbs along the road.

Some real race course could be different, however, they are carefully thought out, the road surfaces are monitored and the drivers can practice driving the road course.

Even the Baja 1000 has some course that you are supposed to follow, assuming you can see where you are going.

I disagree, but we are coming from different view points so I can understand your way of seeing it. I don't think he was pushing the car to limits at all, he may have been going fast but the limits of a GT are very high and he was very experienced with fast cars. I think the tires lost grip while decelerating(typical Porsche) and the car came around on him sending them off the road. Thats just my theory, take it or leave it. We can agree to disagree here. I just want this vibration gone haha. Thanks for your input on that, best help I've got so far.
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:03 PM   #35
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I highly doubt it. For it to vibrate the same way on the stock wheels and the new ones with new tires? Highly unlikely. I am gonna do wheel bearings and the steering guibo today, see where that gets me. Thanks for all the help guys!
My tire guy had 50% of his customers come back after buying brand mew Bridgestone Blizzak LM32's. Ofcourse I don't think that's your problem, but never exclude new tires from originating out of a bad batch.

I literally just fixed this on a family member's car, so here's another idea:
Make sure your rear e-brake shoes are not sticking.
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:10 PM   #36
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Don't have anything to contribute as others are more experienced than I, but wanted to pop in and say, damn nice E30. Sadly, one of my local E30 S54 builds was torched in front of the owner's house while he was sleeping.

Also ITT: people assuming OP wasn't knowledgeable haha
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:29 PM   #37
Hateleydrift
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My tire guy had 50% of his customers come back after buying brand mew Bridgestone Blizzak LM32's. Ofcourse I don't think that's your problem, but never exclude new tires from originating out of a bad batch.

I literally just fixed this on a family member's car, so here's another idea:
Make sure your rear e-brake shoes are not sticking.
Good call on the ebrake, I did an adjustment (on the hub not the cable) on it because it was so loose. For sure it's not sticking, I didn't even go that high with it.
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:31 PM   #38
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Don't have anything to contribute as others are more experienced than I, but wanted to pop in and say, damn nice E30. Sadly, one of my local E30 S54 builds was torched in front of the owner's house while he was sleeping.

Also ITT: people assuming OP wasn't knowledgeable haha
Thanks man! That's terrible, hope he builds another!
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:47 AM   #39
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Just thought I'd chip in, my steering wheel was intermittently shaking terribly until last week. Had new tyres and wheels balanced so I knew it wasn't that as I thought it probably would be (I'm no expert). Turns out the issue was with the front drivers side brake partially sticking on. Dunno about the exact fix, but I got new brakes and disks at the front and the issue went away completely. If anyone else is having this issue I'd have someone who knows what they're doing taking a look at your brakes.
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