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Old 02-04-2017, 02:58 AM   #1
YoitsTmac
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I bet you can't solve this: Need thinking outside the box

I know I know, I annoy myself with how much I talk about this, but I'm getting to the nitty gritty here. I have a high speed wobble that gets dramatically worse under braking that is accompanied by a horrid noise (only under braking). I have had a number of members look at my car in person, and I've stumped a number of them. I have a few more ideas of what I can do, but the more heads I can put on this, the merrier. Here's everything I've done, roughly in the order I did them:

replaced Control arm Bushings - issue begins (yes, everything was perfect prior)
used wheels + new tires (mild improvement. I assume mild misbalance on old wheels)
Replaced control arms (no change)
Replaced inner+outer tie rods (big change, but VERY present)
unbent both front rims (decent improvement, issue still present)
had both front rims rebalanced (no change)
New struts/springs (no change....obviously)
New camber/caster plated (no change)
Sanded down hub + brake + wheel mounting surfaces (no change)
Rode on friends wheels (no change)
Removed roll bar - significant improvement but wobble mildly present, still raining hell under braking
Drove on friends wheels + rotors + pads (no change)
Measured runoff w/friends rotors+pads (all within tolerances)
Replaced steering rack (no change)
Guibo looked new upon rack replacement
Another alignment on 2/3/17 (mild improvement)
double checked brakes were on properly (they were)
Caster plate on wrong, fixed it - mild improvement. Potentially made wobble under braking worse

Brands: FCABS=BMW Z4M Camber plates=UUC Koni FSD+Eibach Prokit. R1 concept rotors + PCF-Z pads. EVERYTHING ELSE IS LEMFORDER

Additional Facts:
I do not hear grinding when turning or at high speed (sorry wheel bearings!). The wobble can be felt through the entire chassis. There are actually no noises associated with the straight line wobble. You can feel the wobble more as more weight is put onto the front axle (down hill, etc.). The noise under braking is a low tone rumble. It may be all in my head, but it feels like any time I put my wheels back on, the wobble takes a while to show itself. It also feels like if I'm forcing the wobble under braking multiple times, the noise gets worse, and I'll even feel like I hear the braking noise after I let off the brakes.


And that leads me to where I am now. Things I'm thinking of doing:
- I technically need to get another alignment now that I flipped my caster. I can't imagine much changed camber or toe wise by the strut resting at a different angle. I drew a mark for my aligned camber before fixing the plate.
-measuring runoff with my rotors on my car. Worth a shot, but wobble did not carry over to my friends car, so don't expect it to be conclusive
-replace passenger tie rod. The boot is ripped and it pissed out all it's...glue/lube during the rack replacement. It was not removed from the kingpin
-my friend says he has a way to check kingpins...worth a shot. I'd like this to be my last result, because I'm bound to damage ball joint boots of both my control arms and tie rods.


I don't know what to do guys. I barely remember how an unmolested E46 suspension feels like anymore. I cannot WAIT to find out what simple thing is in need of attention that will fix all my problems. Any advice would be appreciated!

Last edited by YoitsTmac; 02-05-2017 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:42 AM   #2
generalvp
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If changing your control arm bushings led to all this mess, why not go back to the old ones or use OE bushings instead of other brands? All my headache surfaced when I switched the bushings to meyle. Went back to lemforder and all vibrations gone.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...902&highlight=

Others have said I'm hiding other problems but I've basically replaced the entire front end suspension components to no avail until I got rid of those meyle bushings. It worked for me at least.

Last edited by generalvp; 02-04-2017 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:34 AM   #3
AndreBXP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalvp View Post
If changing your control arm bushings led to all this mess, why not go back to the old ones or use OE bushings instead of other brands? All my headache surfaced when I switched the bushings to meyle. Went back to lemforder and all vibrations gone.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...902&highlight=

Others have said I'm hiding other problems but I've basically replaced the entire front end suspension components to no avail until I got rid of those meyle bushings. It worked for me at least.
^^^This. I also had a similar experience with Meyle bushings. I tried two sets before I gave up and got new Lemforders. Problem solved.

There might be something else at play here. What brands did you use for all the work done above? Are the wheel bearings original?

Good luck.

Last edited by AndreBXP; 02-04-2017 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:52 AM   #4
Megalocnus
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Have you had someone at a BMW shop test drive the car?
I second the advice above to switch to OEM parts if possible.
More about the direction the noise and vibraton are coming from?
Caliper issues? Front left or right disc getting warmer than the one on the oposite side?
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:13 AM   #5
BKMrSteel
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It might sound like you are the factor. Do you do pulse braking, or drive in traffic a lot? Do you have a heavy foot in both stop and go? I've heard that inconsistent braking pressure can create uneven surface tension on the rotors. I suspect rotors, pads, and you from what you have explained.

At some point you should have stopped replacing things like control arms, and camber plates with expectations of fixing a wobble. That stuff has to be really bad to have been the culprit, and normally easy to identify as bad.

Good luck


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Old 02-04-2017, 08:31 AM   #6
Clovett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoitsTmac View Post
I know I know, I annoy myself with how much I talk about this, but I'm getting to the nitty gritty here. I have a high speed wobble that gets dramatically worse under braking that is accompanied by a horrid noise (only under braking). I have had a number of members look at my car in person, and I've stumped a number of them. I have a few more ideas of what I can do, but the more heads I can put on this, the merrier. Here's everything I've done, roughly in the order I did them:

replaced Control arm Bushings - issue begins (yes, everything was perfect prior)
used wheels + new tires (mild improvement. I assume mild misbalance on old wheels)
Replaced control arms (no change)
Replaced inner+outer tie rods (big change, but VERY present)
unbent both front rims (decent improvement, issue still present)
had both front rims rebalanced (no change)
New struts/springs (no change....obviously)
New camber/caster plated (no change)
Sanded down hub + brake + wheel mounting surfaces (no change)
Rode on friends wheels (no change)
Removed roll bar - significant improvement but wobble mildly present, still raining hell under braking
Drove on friends wheels + rotors + pads (no change)
Measured runoff w/friends rotors+pads (all within tolerances)
Replaced steering rack (no change)
Guibo looked new upon rack replacement
Another alignment on 2/3/17 (mild improvement)
double checked brakes were on properly (they were)
Caster plate on wrong, fixed it - mild improvement. Potentially made wobble under braking worse
In your timeline it shows you had a "second alignment" on 2/3/17

When did you have the first one? Was it when you originally changed your control arm bushings?
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:31 AM   #7
jmo69
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If you changed the caster, the toe will change. I increased the caster on my xi by changing the outer ball joint and the toe changed. I didn't get a readout before and after but was assured the toe was out of spec.
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:33 AM   #8
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have you checked the bushings on the rear?
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:11 AM   #9
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Have you checked the calipers to see if they are stuck?
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Old 02-04-2017, 11:59 AM   #10
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Does this car have drilled and/or slotted brake rotors?

I am also thinking that maybe one or both wheel bearings may be done as well.
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:41 PM   #11
YoitsTmac
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I bet you can't solve this: Need thinking outside the box

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovett View Post
In your timeline it shows you had a "second alignment" on 2/3/17



When did you have the first one? Was it when you originally changed your control arm bushings?


I've probably had 4-5 alignments through this ordeal. I just didn't want to list them all since they all ended the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmo69 View Post
If you changed the caster, the toe will change. I increased the caster on my xi by changing the outer ball joint and the toe changed. I didn't get a readout before and after but was assured the toe was out of spec.
I'm sure a little, since the change in angle of the strut changes the angle of the kingpin which changes the angle of the tie rod, but I don't think a slightly off tie rod would make this violent shake, especially since it's been in spec with this issue
Quote:
Originally Posted by morseoneuk View Post
have you checked the bushings on the rear?
Most bushings in the rear are replaced, however my issue is undeniably up front
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillieidiot View Post
Have you checked the calipers to see if they are stuck?
My rotors spin freely when it's in the air. That and my friend (mechanic) said a stick caliper wouldn't cause this issue


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Does this car have drilled and/or slotted brake rotors?



I am also thinking that maybe one or both wheel bearings may be done as well.
Fronts are slotted. What's your thinking here? Wouldn't I hear a grinding noise or something of that nature? Edit: I've done a bit of research - so I can have the symptoms without the noise? It's virtually the only thing left unreplaced aside from the nuckle. I have nice California roads and the original rims had no curb rash (so I don't think they hit one and bent the kingpin)

Thanks for all your ideas guys. Really appreciate it

Last edited by YoitsTmac; 02-04-2017 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:10 PM   #12
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Slotted or drilled/slotted rotors may a vibration or humming noise under hard braking over say 25 MPH. Normal stopping you will not hear or feel anything.

The first time my slotted rotors were put to use heavily at highway speeds many years ago, I would have though I ran off the edge of the road on the rumble strips!!

Wheel bearings can do funny things, especially if the bearing cage is broken and the bearings move to one side of the assembly.
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Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Old 02-04-2017, 01:17 PM   #13
YoitsTmac
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Normal braking still creates a hum for me. That doesn't come up until about 40mph.
Performance is not an issue, but I could probably stop shorter without the shimmy 0.o. No complaints with braking though

Is there anyway to test the bearing loose in the cage? I'll try on my way to work today, but I don't believe I get a grind on hard turning

Additional info: car/steering gets pretty unsettled over bumps


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Old 02-04-2017, 01:30 PM   #14
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I assume you removed the control arm bushings when you replaced the control arms. If not, I'd retorque them. It's free and doesn't take a lot of time.

Otherwise, like others, I'd strongly suspect the bushings and/or brackets.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:32 PM   #15
YoitsTmac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geo31 View Post
I assume you removed the control arm bushings when you replaced the control arms. If not, I'd retorque them. It's free and doesn't take a lot of time.

Otherwise, like others, I'd strongly suspect the bushings and/or brackets.

I've actually gone through 3 sets of FCAB bushings. Initial one that made my issue, another set during tie rods, and a third set about 3 weeks ago. A few people have looked at them and said my current set was done correctly
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:50 PM   #16
YoitsTmac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generalvp View Post
If changing your control arm bushings led to all this mess, why not go back to the old ones or use OE bushings instead of other brands? All my headache surfaced when I switched the bushings to meyle. Went back to lemforder and all vibrations gone.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...902&highlight=

Others have said I'm hiding other problems but I've basically replaced the entire front end suspension components to no avail until I got rid of those meyle bushings. It worked for me at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreBXP View Post
^^^This. I also had a similar experience with Meyle bushings. I tried two sets before I gave up and got new Lemforders. Problem solved.

There might be something else at play here. What brands did you use for all the work done above? Are the wheel bearings original?

Good luck.
I missed these comments. My original two pairs were Meyle, so I have a similar experience as you guys. I replaced my Meyle FCAB's with Z4M bushings. My feeling is, that a BMW Z4M is meant to drive "without issue" on these bushings, then as AndreBXP said, there's something else at play. Wheel bearings are original as far as I know. My only Meyle parts are my end links.
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Old 02-04-2017, 01:56 PM   #17
SiVaE46
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I would do wheel bearings to eliminate that .... more pressure on the beating explains wobble - and yes - the usual turn left/right into the wheel to make bearing grind might not always cause the same noise
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Old 02-04-2017, 02:03 PM   #18
Osh
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Forgive me for I am new but ... could it be related to ABS and the fact you have slotted rotors up the front?

Last edited by Osh; 02-04-2017 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 02-04-2017, 02:21 PM   #19
YoitsTmac
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Originally Posted by Osh View Post
Forgive me for I am new but ... could it be related to ABS and the fact you have slotted rotors up the front?
ABS is an electrical system that makes sure brakes don't lock up, and the traction control light would come up. This would not result in a noise either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiVaE46 View Post
I would do wheel bearings to eliminate that .... more pressure on the beating explains wobble - and yes - the usual turn left/right into the wheel to make bearing grind might not always cause the same noise
Little confused with what you're saying. You're saying that I should hear some noise while turning, not necessarily grinding?

I'm price shopping a bit. Do we have a sponsor that can help me? Never used one. ECS offers Vaico hubs with everything I need for $154. Thoughts? I know F.A.G. is the stuff but...as you can see by how much I've replaced (and just paid for this semester), my wallet is screaming
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Old 02-04-2017, 02:28 PM   #20
clabcon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoitsTmac View Post
Normal braking still creates a hum for me. That doesn't come up until about 40mph.
Performance is not an issue, but I could probably stop shorter without the shimmy 0.o. No complaints with braking though

Is there anyway to test the bearing loose in the cage? I'll try on my way to work today, but I don't believe I get a grind on hard turning

Additional info: car/steering gets pretty unsettled over bumps


TM
Replace your steering column intermediate shaft and guibo. You will thank me.
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