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E46 325xi - Driveline shudder in reverse - similar to locked diffs

16K views 20 replies 6 participants last post by  feddomw 
#1 ·
Hello all,

This is my first post to the forum. I recently had a 2003 325xi fall into my lap - it was a deal too good to pass up; and I've been meaning to try out the other AWD systems from various manufacturers. Our last 7 cars have been Audi's - I consider myself an expert in owning and maintaining them. The only thing my vehicles go to the shop for is tires and alignment (20 years shop-free!)

I've searched the forums, and the web in general, but I am unable to find a solid answer to my question:

When I back this vehicle up with the steering turned at a modernate to full angle, the car shudders. This "shudder" is *exactly* the same as when the rear diff, or the center diff (in a non-torsen vehicle) is locked and the vehicle is turning. It feels as thought the tires aren't able to turn at the large difference in rate between them.

My understanding of the E46's AWD system is that all three (center, front, and rear) differentials are open (I know the center is a transfer case, rather than a real differential). But, something must be happening in the center diff to force the 68/32 torque split. I suspect this is the issue - if this is normal behavior.

Is this driveline shudder (one tire "scrubbing" since it can't turn at the rate it would like) normal? The car seems to drive fine, even at the limits - the only symptom is when reversing and turning.

Thanks for the help in advance.

Tom
 
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#3 · (Edited)
I recently started a thread on this too. Some good comments there, yet no definitive answer. Thread on this Xi board. EDIT: here it is http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=810841

The problem is the same as yours, I would describe it more as a "binding" feeling. I did not have it this bad on my Quattros or a Golf I had from 2001 which was a 4Motion and had the Haldex unit.

I don't like SamDoe's "solution" as it feels like a cop-out. I prefer a diagnosis before I fix things or have them fixed. My CV joints are fine BTW.


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#4 ·
CVs and Axles?

I drive the hell out of my cars - buy them at 100K, and sell them at 400K plus - I've never had CV issues act like this. I'm still thinking it has something to do with the transfer case not being a true open diff. Are there xi owners out there that can verify thier car DON'T skip or shudder in reverse and full lock?

Tom
 
#13 ·
xi binding in reverse

So, it sounds like the CV's are an issue in these vehicles. I questioned this at first - I've never had a CV go out/bad on any of my previous cars (Audis - 7x) unless the boot was torn and dirt had gotten in there. I'm talking 400K (very hard, but very well maintained) miles in almost every vehicle without a CV ever going bad.

My CV's pass the classic test - full lock turn without clicking - are people saying they can still be bad and still pass this test? I am also assuming that we are talking about the front outside CVs? - they are the only ones that really get stressed in normal operation. Can I lift the car up and check for looseness in the CVs (twisting them), or binding in neutral?

If it is bad CV's causing this issue, I'm assuming the tracks in the CV joint are worn in a way that stressed forward they operated normally, but in reverse the wear and tear is evident (more loose?)

I appreciate all the input, and as a BMW newbie (but well-versed in Audi / Audi quattro), I know to rely on the forums. It's just at this point, I haven't lurked long enough to know who really knows what the issue is, and who is full of sh*t. No offense intended (seriously).

So, should I rebuild the outside front CVs, or are all CV joints in these model cars a weak spot? Should I rebuild the entire half-shafts? I really appreciate the help.
 
#18 ·
So, it sounds like the CV's are an issue in these vehicles. I questioned this at first - I've never had a CV go out/bad on any of my previous cars (Audis - 7x) unless the boot was torn and dirt had gotten in there. I'm talking 400K (very hard, but very well maintained) miles in almost every vehicle without a CV ever going bad.

My CV's pass the classic test - full lock turn without clicking - are people saying they can still be bad and still pass this test? I am also assuming that we are talking about the front outside CVs? - they are the only ones that really get stressed in normal operation. Can I lift the car up and check for looseness in the CVs (twisting them), or binding in neutral?

If it is bad CV's causing this issue, I'm assuming the tracks in the CV joint are worn in a way that stressed forward they operated normally, but in reverse the wear and tear is evident (more loose?)

I appreciate all the input, and as a BMW newbie (but well-versed in Audi / Audi quattro), I know to rely on the forums. It's just at this point, I haven't lurked long enough to know who really knows what the issue is, and who is full of sh*t. No offense intended (seriously).

So, should I rebuild the outside front CVs, or are all CV joints in these model cars a weak spot? Should I rebuild the entire half-shafts? I really appreciate the help.
Torn boots are not the only issue that can cause CV failure. You can also have failure if the boot clamp comes loose and lets all the grease out of the boot, also common. What you can do is to try and clean and repack the joint with new grease and see if that helps. I don't think the CV joints can be rebuilt easily on these cars, you're better off swapping the whole axle assembly out.

Both inner and outer CV joints are a weak spot on these cars. Front only though. And yes, rebuild/replace the whole half shaft.

This might be a long shot, but have you checked your brakes for any binding there? It might be a shot in the dark but worth a quick look.
 
#14 ·
Stupid question, but are the rims stock? There's always talk of offset/staggered rim setups causing issues on Xi models.

I think the previous posters talking about CV failure are talking about torn boot, grease spilled out type failures. Axles with grease in them tend to stay happy.

The only other idea i can throw out is that the transfer case, diffs and transmission are all listed by BMW as a lifetime fill fluid. I changed all of these finding the fluid in varying condition. The transfer case was by far the worst.

My thought is really broken down fluid in the t-case could cause some drag, and the hopping/scrubbing. I may be completely wrong here, but the t-case fluid NEEDS to be changed at some point.
 
#17 · (Edited)
It does but the transfer case is a geared case. If you have hopping between gears or gear teeth, you have far more issues than a fluid change will fix...

Just checked. No clicking, just like Tom.

I will explain as best I can, and I think I discovered something

I am more and more convinced that this problem (in my case) is connected to the "shudder" I feel sometimes as described before.

I can reproduce it easily: right at the point the clutch engages, I can feel the driveline has a shudder. Obviously I can only feel this from a standstill start. Going very slowly, just letting the clutch engage without using the acceleration pedal, steering wheel straight, shudder until rolling and clutch fully engaged.

It's obviously something which has "play" that is causing the shudder and is only felt under load, i.e. a standstill start as the car has to overcome inertia.

I think this is the same when driving backwards and is aggravated with the steering wheel turned, as the inertia which has to be overcome is much greater with the wheels turned. I don't think I noticed it before because generally you dive straight forward, and turning backwards if you get what I mean. I never if ever drive forward with the steering wheel turned.

The shudder is less pronounced when driving backwards straight, but maybe because the reverse gear is a much lighter gear than first gear, thus easier to overcome inertia?

Transmission guys have not called me back yet, which is disappointing. I will have to call them and drive by again, but it's not exactly around the corner....
All manual transmission cars will "shudder" to some extent when you do that. If yours has excessive shudder, I doubt it will be an axle issue but it might be a clutch issue. If it's an axle issue, you will be able to feel the shudder in the steering wheel. If you feel it throughout the car, then it's likely something else. If it was an axle or other drivetrain issue, you'd notice it at all lower speeds right? How many miles?
 
#16 ·
Just checked. No clicking, just like Tom.

I will explain as best I can, and I think I discovered something

I am more and more convinced that this problem (in my case) is connected to the "shudder" I feel sometimes as described before.

I can reproduce it easily: right at the point the clutch engages, I can feel the driveline has a shudder. Obviously I can only feel this from a standstill start. Going very slowly, just letting the clutch engage without using the acceleration pedal, steering wheel straight, shudder until rolling and clutch fully engaged.

It's obviously something which has "play" that is causing the shudder and is only felt under load, i.e. a standstill start as the car has to overcome inertia.

I think this is the same when driving backwards and is aggravated with the steering wheel turned, as the inertia which has to be overcome is much greater with the wheels turned. I don't think I noticed it before because generally you dive straight forward, and turning backwards if you get what I mean. I never if ever drive forward with the steering wheel turned.

The shudder is less pronounced when driving backwards straight, but maybe because the reverse gear is a much lighter gear than first gear, thus easier to overcome inertia?

Transmission guys have not called me back yet, which is disappointing. I will have to call them and drive by again, but it's not exactly around the corner....
 
#19 ·
I have had the same problem (ACPP), the photo shows the outside all dry (grease was in excellent condition), but visible wear affects the vibration. Verdict - replacing CV joints (mileage 100к)
 

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#20 ·
A final update to this thread ***possible solution***

I've noticed that since I went through and changed the driveline fluids (trans, front, center, and rear diff) that this problem has gone away. The only other thing I did that was possibly related (but I doubt it) was that I changed tires. Now, I suspect that changing the center diff (well, transfer case) fluid fixed this problem.

I used Redline 75W90 at the ends, Redline MTL in the transfer case, and BMW OEM (Castrol Dextron 6 - $11 at the dealer, $3 or $4 elsewhere) for the transmission (I have the French GM slushbox). I hope this helps someone else, please report if it does!

(Biggest peeve about the car - the Tiptronics in the Audi's shift opposite to the BMW's; it can be embarrassing!)

Tom
2003 325xi
 
#21 ·
In an e39 I had you could change the shift direction very easily, just reverse the plug/wires on the shifter. On an e39 the plug in very easy to get to, just pull out the shifter boot, pull up on the shrouding to unclip it, reverse the plug, done. The only problem was that the +/- were still visible in the "normal" position.
 
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