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General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

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Old 08-19-2016, 12:44 PM   #41
Rob43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Correct. It's high freq vibration that causes them to back off. I probably wouldn't weld them though just cause it's a lot of work and largely unnecessary. Permanent thread locker should add a nice layer of security. Wire tie seals the deal.

From the factory, ZHPs get an encapsulated nut as a fix. You don't really hear about those backing off.

This is incorrect info.

Why do you post on subjects that you have no experience in ?

My oil pump failed because of a Shaft failure. If the nut can't vibrate off, the shaft shears off given enough time....




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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
I Know How To Fix The Rear "Bouncing" Problem On Your Cheap Coilovers Like: Jom RL FK SE & RK.
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:50 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Rob43 View Post
This is incorrect info.

Why do you post on subjects that you have no experience in ?

My oil pump failed because of a Shaft failure. If the nut can't vibrate off, the shaft shears off given enough time....




Rob43
I never said the shaft can't shear, I stated what can cause the nut to back off.

You're confusing two separate topics and strangely trying to connect the two. Please stop following me around like a lost puppy trying to stir up trouble. And for the record, I do have experience with this problem. I've reinforced my own nut as well as tended to three failures of OPNs--all of which are on this very forum. I think it's time to put the Budweiser down. Lets stay on topic here and stick to the facts and science.
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:57 PM   #43
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I saw some welded nuts that sheared off which made me think the oil pump nut can be over tightened. That along with the heating that came from welding not properly tempered/annealed can cause the metal to become brittle where the weld is.
I figured if I tighten it up enough to hold the sprocket but minimal amount as not to stretch the spindle holding the sprocket, it would be the strongest approach.
If the sprocket can move around on the spindle, I agree it will cause damage aka cyclic load. But the torque specs for these nuts are only around 18 ft lbs. This makes me think there's not much force on the sprocket, but rather high frequency harmonic vibrations that vibrate the nut loose.
I haven't seen images of broken shafts so I can't say, but I'm going to speculate that they're probably torsion failures. So if that's how it is, then over torquing a little isn't going to hurt it. Welds tend to shrink diameters but I don't think it'll cause any extra preload.

If welding is correlated with broken shafts, I can't think of an actual cause from the weld.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
Correct. It's high freq vibration that causes them to back off. I probably wouldn't weld them though just cause it's a lot of work and largely unnecessary. Permanent thread locker should add a nice layer of security. Wire tie seals the deal.

From the factory, ZHPs get an encapsulated nut as a fix. You don't really hear about those backing off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob43 View Post
This is incorrect info.

Why do you post on subjects that you have no experience in ?

My oil pump failed because of a Shaft failure. If the nut can't vibrate off, the shaft shears off given enough time....




Rob43
Interesting. I've not seen any sheared yet. I've always heard of the nut coming off and that's it.
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Old 08-19-2016, 12:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mango View Post
I never said the shaft can't shear, I stated what can cause the nut to back off.

You're confusing two separate topics and strangely trying to connect the two. Please stop following me around like a lost puppy trying to stir up trouble. And for the record, I do have experience with this problem. I've reinforced my own nut as well as tended to three failures of OPNs--all of which are on this very forum. I think it's time to put the Budweiser down. Lets stay on topic here and stick to the facts and science.

You said & I quote:

"Correct. It's high freq vibration that causes them to back off."


Please get it right the first time. No one likes piss poor information.....maybe you should stop hitting the pipe.




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Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
I Know How To Fix The Rear "Bouncing" Problem On Your Cheap Coilovers Like: Jom RL FK SE & RK.

Last edited by Rob43; 08-19-2016 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:07 PM   #45
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Stop dick measuring guys.

Do you have pics of the broken shafts? I'm interested to see.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:10 PM   #46
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Stop dick measuring guys.

Do you have pics of the broken shafts? I'm interested to see.
Eh this dude follows me around everywhere making stupid comments. He's been permanently blocked from my end.

As far as sheared shafts, it happens particularly on raced cars that see sustained high rpm operation. VAC has engineered a replacement pump and shaft years ago. It's been beat to death on E36 M3 forums over the years. You can check it out
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:14 PM   #47
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Eh this dude follows me around everywhere making stupid comments. He's been permanently blocked from my end.

As far as sheared shafts, it happens particularly on raced cars that see sustained high rpm operation. VAC has engineered a replacement pump and shaft years ago. It's been beat to death on E36 M3 forums over the years. You can check it out

Be careful, what goes around comes around...

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"since the last oil pump failure (above picture of bearings and sheered oil pump drive was from the first failure)."


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SUMMIT POINT WV 1:24:229 SCCA
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"Chance Favors The Prepared Mind"

I BUILD SUSPENSIONS (Consult) FROM MILD TO WILD FOR RWD & Xi E46's
Quote:
Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
I Know How To Fix The Rear "Bouncing" Problem On Your Cheap Coilovers Like: Jom RL FK SE & RK.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:23 PM   #48
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Correct. It's high freq vibration that causes them to back off. I probably wouldn't weld them though just cause it's a lot of work and largely unnecessary. Permanent thread locker should add a nice layer of security. Wire tie seals the deal.

From the factory, ZHPs get an encapsulated nut as a fix. You don't really hear about those backing off.
That would also work, although when I took the oil pan off an original zhp engine at one time I saw the nut and it was identical to a regular m54b30 engine. I read somewhere that bmw uses a special locktite-type of liquid on the threads. Other than that they looked the same to me. This is a zhp engine with oil pan off...
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:25 PM   #49
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That would also work, although when I took the oil pan off an original zhp engine at one time I saw the nut and it was identical to a regular m54b30 engine. I read somewhere that bmw uses a special locktite-type of liquid on the threads. Other than that they looked the same to me. This is a zhp engine with oil pan off...
Did you look inside the nut? The encapsulated stuff is inside the nut. like a stuffed crust pizza. Should be different. has its own part# i think.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:31 PM   #50
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I remember someone pointing out that the long-stroke BMW engines that have oil chain tensioners (Euro S50, S54, N5x) don't have the OPN back off or shear shafts. I wonder if it'd be possible to fabricate a mount for an oil chain tensioner on the M54 and if that would help alleviate some of the problem.
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Old 08-19-2016, 01:39 PM   #51
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Be careful, what goes around comes around...

*******************

Vorshlag:

"since the last oil pump failure (above picture of bearings and sheered oil pump drive was from the first failure)."


Rob43

You are correct, there are many well documented cases of sheared oil pump shafts.
op, gluing the nut or welding the nut is not the answer if your goal is higher HP and higher rpm.

http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-of-the-M54b30
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:16 PM   #52
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Did you look inside the nut? The encapsulated stuff is inside the nut. like a stuffed crust pizza. Should be different. has its own part# i think.
No, I didn't look inside the nut. It looked like it was all metal from briefly looking at it, but I can't say for sure.
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:18 PM   #53
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No, I didn't look inside the nut. It looked like it was all metal from briefly looking at it, but I can't say for sure.
It couldve been the product simply dried out, flaked out when you removed the nut.
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:20 PM   #54
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I remember someone pointing out that the long-stroke BMW engines that have oil chain tensioners (Euro S50, S54, N5x) don't have the OPN back off or shear shafts. I wonder if it'd be possible to fabricate a mount for an oil chain tensioner on the M54 and if that would help alleviate some of the problem.
That would be interesting, but from what I remember the chain connecting the oil pump sprocket to the crank sprocket is very short (oil pump sits almost right under the crank), so having a chain tensioner might not do much.
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Old 08-19-2016, 02:31 PM   #55
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I think you guys will be fine. My E46 saw tons of sustained high rpm redline shifts with increased rev limiter (canyon driving) and when I pulled the pan, the nut was as tight as a nun's ***t. Haha... yes it's a concern, but really not a huge one. I think if you wire tie and loctite it, you'll be fine for life so long as you're not a full time racer. By that point, you'd be driving the wrong car anyway.
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:04 PM   #56
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I think you guys will be fine. My E46 saw tons of sustained high rpm redline shifts with increased rev limiter (canyon driving) and when I pulled the pan, the nut was as tight as a nun's ***t. Haha... yes it's a concern, but really not a huge one. I think if you wire tie and loctite it, you'll be fine for life so long as you're not a full time racer. By that point, you'd be driving the wrong car anyway.
LOL, your arrogance is incredible. Who are you to tell anyone how to enjoy their BMW.

Remember it's "The ultimate driving machine"

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Old 08-19-2016, 10:00 PM   #57
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15. Pedal plate (it's plastic and is cut out where the clutch pedal is for manuals, but not for autos)
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:05 PM   #58
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Ok, here's how the currently sits. It has been driven this week and boy it's not comfortable. It's loud, fast and rough. Unfortunately I don't have any onboard videos, I don't want to show you how not to drive on public roads...
But I've been working on the interior and will soon build a muffler for it.
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:09 PM   #59
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It
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:15 PM   #60
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Starts!
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