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Old 09-23-2016, 01:22 PM   #1
Marty330xi
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Dancing idle at start

Hello,

I am looking for a quick diagnostic for the 330ci I just bought. The story is simple, I went to test drive a 330ci 2001 with 124k miles on it. When I tested it the car ran smooth and right. The car was stored for 9 months and got serviced when it came out.

Only now, two days after the purchase, when I started the car this morning the idle was dancing between 200 and 1000 RPM and shortly after the car stalled.

After trying 4 or 5 times, the idle settled to 700 RPM as when i bought it. The temperature was just out of the blue zone. I need your help to pinpoint the faulty part as I dont have much to put on the car until next spring. I have the code log, freeze frame (I dont know if this one is good, it's my first time doing it) , fuel trim at warm and stable idle and the O2 sensor voltage. Sorry for the freeze frame log and the code log as they are in french but I can clarify any values if needed.

Thanks!
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:14 PM   #2
Marty330xi
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Sorry for bumping but I really need to get this car going before next weekend! I know this community is awesome and that the common knowledge here is way superior to my beginner's skills!

Last edited by Marty330xi; 09-23-2016 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 09-23-2016, 09:21 PM   #3
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My take with the limited information here is the following:

There is a problem with the IAC circuit, but is the problem with the value or the wiring?? Might be best to remove and clean the ICV and make sure the wiring is not damage. Since the car sat for a long time, there may be rodent damage to the wiring?

It also looks like at least from the graph the Bank #2 Post-Cat O2 sensor is at 0 Volts which is not good. The question is there a problem with the sensor, the wiring or a Lean fuel mixture for Bank #2.
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Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 09-24-2016, 09:11 AM   #4
Marty330xi
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Thank you! I will check and clean the ICV, but what info would you you need to make a better diagnostic?
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Old 09-24-2016, 09:12 AM   #5
markusmarkus
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Rodents love wire insulation. It adds fiber to their diet.
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Old 09-24-2016, 10:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty330xi View Post
Thank you! I will check and clean the ICV, but what info would you you need to make a better diagnostic?
A Log of all active PID's on the vehicle in .CSV file format is far better than anything you have provided. Logging trigger needs to be 1 second or less and the Trigger needs to be based on time rather than PID or GPS.

I see you have Torque Pro, it supports Logging, but in the past I have found that Torque was full of bugs and I gave up on it when a few newer Apps came out. I prefer OBDFusion, it is only $3.99 USD and it is far better for Logging than Torque IMHO.

You might read the PDF in this thread for info on OBDFusion Logging - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1097893
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 09-30-2016, 02:20 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Marty330xi View Post
OK! I finally had the time to do the whole logging! So a couple of things did went strange during the logging. At the start, the car would just stall after 5 to 10 seconds. I got it running on the 6th or 7th attempt while holding the clutch pedal down. This is why the cold log is 6 minutes instead of around 4. The warm idle log went great. For the cruise log, i had to get over a hill on the highway so its maybe not the most accurate or useful one. Last thing when I parked the car after the cruise, I wanted to do the diagnostic function on OBDFusion, after waiting for the report and putting it on dropbox, the engine temperature was in the RED section!

So I am now thinking about selling this car because of the incoming headaches and troubles, but I still hope one last time for a possible solution to this puzzle.

Thank you for your help guys!

Dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mz6aft7l6...fG-VXboFa?dl=0
Looks like your precision coordinates are in that file. I'd probably take that out. you never know. Cute neighborhood. Where do you keep your car? No space on the street.
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Old 09-30-2016, 02:46 PM   #8
Marty330xi
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Thanks... didnt notice. Will update that back.
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:11 PM   #9
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Allright the files are updated, but in an unnecessary panic move, I deleted my earlier post.

So, I will write it again. Here it goes friends,

I finally had the time to do the logging in the cold, warm and cruise situation. I ran into two troubles along the way. First at cold start the engine kept stalling for 5 to 6 attempts. I managed to get it going by holding the clutch pedal down even in neutral. It still took time to stabilize the idle. The warm idle and cruise tests went without any troubles, but after parking the car I wanted to run a diagnostic report on the car. So at warm idle I waited for the app to complete until I noticed at the very end that the engine temp was in the red section. I immediately shut the engine off.

Plot twist: In my panic attack I also deleted the diagnostic report. So I returned to the car, put the key to on and saw that the engine temp was cooled back to normal operating temp. I started the engine and run the Diag report again. The temperature didnt move at all during that time.

So finally I am thinking about selling that car due to the incoming headaches and catastrophes, but I still hope for a possible solution to this growing nightmare.

Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mz6aft7l6...fG-VXboFa?dl=0

Last edited by Marty330xi; 09-30-2016 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 09-30-2016, 03:59 PM   #10
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You have about 4 separate problems from my initial take.

This is only one snapshot of data, so not sure we can solve all the problems with one wave of the magic wand.

To start, I will break it into sub sections to address.

1. Engine RPM is unstable, there is a P0505 IAC code, my first recommendation is to remove the ICV and clean it out. It should move very freely and rattle around when you shake/rotate it. If it does not rattle, it needs to be cleaned or replaced.

When you remove the ICV, make 100% you FULLY seat the valve back into the grommet, this is a mistake almost every nube makes.

2. There is a MAP thermostat code, I would not rush on this one, but it most likely means the thermostat needs to be replaced. You are up North so not sure how quickly the cold weather is coming your way. This will have limited impact, if any, on cold start idle performance.

3. SAP Pending code. My view of the Cold Start Log shows that the SAP may not be working very well. But I am also seeing that the Bank #1 Pre-cat O2 sensor is a bit lazy. There are also some faults in the Mode $06 chart is the Diagnostic Report as well, these may be due to the Bank #1 Pre-cat O2 sensor being lazy. I would recommend replacing BOTH Pre-cat O2 sensors with Bosch Direct Fit O2 sensors. Make sure you label and VERIFY the Pre-cat O2 sensors wiring is connected properly. Make no assumptions that they are corrected properly at this point. We can get into this later.

4. The SAP system may also have a bad vacuum hose or hoses. Very common problem, there is a vacuum hose that runs along the valve cover to under the rear of the intake. A bit of PITA to replace, but this is almost always a problem. The large hose from the output of the SAP pump is probably brittle and cracking as well. These should be checked and replaced just because. The SAP system not working properly should not have much to do with the idle stability on cold start.

5. Until we get the Pre-cat O2 sensors replaced and solve some other problems, I will wait on making a final determination about the MAF. The MAF may be over reporting slightly, most of these engines have a MAF reading at 700 RPM on a warm engine around 3.8.-4.2 g/s. Yours is slight high.

Not sure if you can DIY, if you can, these are all fairly easy things to do and you will be around $120 USD in parts or less unless you need to replace the ICV or MAF.

You might try starting the engine cold from overnight with the MAF disconnected and see how the idle is, if no change, pull the ICV and clean it for sure. If it idles better, just make note of this and still pull and clean the ICV.

I would put intake boots, fuel pump and fuel filter on the short list as well.

Welcome to a 15 BMW or just a 15 year old car!

BTW, forgot to mention that for the warm idle Log, the Bank #2 Post-cat O2 sensor was at a very low Voltage. This could mean the Bank #2 converter is not working correctly, or it could mean there is something else is up. Not sure we can make a firm decision based on just the one set of Logs. But something to keep an eye on.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 09-30-2016 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 09-30-2016, 04:04 PM   #11
Marty330xi
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Allright thanks jfoj! Will go down this way. Cold weather is approaching in 1 or 2 months maximum I am talking about 30-40 f degrees here and can drop to -13 and more.
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Old 09-30-2016, 11:33 PM   #12
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When you say serviced what got serviced on the car? It looks like you just need some fresh fuel.
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Old 09-30-2016, 11:41 PM   #13
Marty330xi
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I bought the car with an empty fuel tank. I have filled half of it with premium fuel [92 octane]
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Old 10-01-2016, 02:27 AM   #14
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CCV going bad?
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Old 10-01-2016, 10:23 AM   #15
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You put a half a tank of gas in, but how many miles have you driven since you did that? Fuel (especially what we get now with ethanol) is not stable over months and can cause problems. If something is a bit funky because of old gas, you may need to give it some run time to work out. I'd be tempted to fill up with premium and add a bottle of some kind of fuel treatment/injector cleaner and then drive the crap out of it for a bit before I worried too much and started to consider selling.

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Old 10-01-2016, 01:17 PM   #16
Marty330xi
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Maybe 40 miles top. It struggled the second time I was about to drive it. Drove it yesterday and for the cruise log so about 30 minutes drive on highway.
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Old 10-01-2016, 01:56 PM   #17
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I'd drive the crap out of it a bit and see if anything shakes loose. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but sitting is the worst thing for a car. Old gas is nasty.
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Old 10-01-2016, 03:02 PM   #18
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Not seeing anything here that would lead me to believe bad fuel is a major contributor.

There is CLEARLY an error for the ICV or ICV circuit. This is probably the main contributor to any idle problem.

I had a car that sat for 10 years, with the exception of the fuel pump being locked up, after the pump was changed, with about 5 gallons of fresh fuel added to the 1/2 tank that was in the car, it start and ran pretty good.

Sure, fresh fuel is best, but the problems this car is showing does not appear to be directly related to bad fuel.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 10-02-2016, 11:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Not seeing anything here that would lead me to believe bad fuel is a major contributor.

There is CLEARLY an error for the ICV or ICV circuit. This is probably the main contributor to any idle problem.

I had a car that sat for 10 years, with the exception of the fuel pump being locked up, after the pump was changed, with about 5 gallons of fresh fuel added to the 1/2 tank that was in the car, it start and ran pretty good.

Sure, fresh fuel is best, but the problems this car is showing does not appear to be directly related to bad fuel.
The reason I mention bad gas is because it only happens when cold or in open loop mode. If it was really a ICV problem it would happen at idle when warm too or you would see something weird with the data or other symptoms. There is nothing, the fuel trims are solid, everything is pretty solid (apart from dead post cat O2 but that doesn't effect anything). Its happening only in open loop when the mixture is rich. I don't actually know how the fuel trims would be reacting to bad fuel, but the fact that they're normal and the only variable was time made me think gas.

Its also possible that the problem was always there and the owner never noticed because the car was warm when he tested it.

It is hard to diagnose a car over the internet.

Last edited by Dappman; 10-02-2016 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 10-02-2016, 05:12 PM   #20
Marty330xi
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Wait you guys mention dead post-cat o2 sensor and lazy pre-cat o2 sensor. I have ordered 2 pre-cat, but should I worry about the post-cat?
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