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Go Back   E46Fanatics > Tuning & Tech > Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning

Driveline, Engine & DME Tuning
Talk about driveline improvements, NA tuning and DME tuning your E46 BMW here. This includes diffs, intakes, exhausts, chips, software and OBD tuning.

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Old 10-08-2015, 12:18 AM   #21
daniel_f.
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Originally Posted by 328ijunkie View Post
Vanos is turned off in the factory tune


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Old 10-08-2015, 09:36 AM   #22
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Daniel, i was playing into his statement... Whether true or not
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Old 10-08-2015, 10:58 AM   #23
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I know, i just canīt quote him as heīs blocked I donīt wanna read that ****
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Old 10-08-2015, 12:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by daniel_f. View Post
A friend of mine got measured 22hp (actually PS) at the crank from a pretty easy tune. Engine was bone-stock.
Do you know how much they cranked up the advanced ignition timing? (from where to where)
My guess is that's where the power comes from, but that can also come at a price as it puts extra strain on the big end bearings etc.
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Old 10-08-2015, 12:30 PM   #25
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M54s don't benefit from a ton of advance being added. Factory curve is decent
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:18 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Rob43 View Post
I'll start by saying that you've been around for a long while & I have respect for you & the things you've done to your E46.


Having said that, I have NO idea why you'd say that you Don't believe in "Tunes" for the E46 ??

Am I understanding you correctly on this ???


I personally made 6.5 WHP with my Shark Injector on a Dyno Dynamics dyno which is like saying about ~7.5 WHP on a Dynojet.

Iceman00 made 14 WHP (~17 Crank HP) with a Shark Injector & a Long Tube CAI, here's his dyno:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...1&postcount=25



Rob43
First, thank you Rob, I have a great deal of respect for you as well and I think we agree on pretty much everything.

To be more precise, I don't believe that you can get much more than a minor token increase in power by trying to further tune an otherwise unmodified car.

I do fully believe in and support tuning a car that has been modified in some way to change air density, temp, or flow, or different grades or types of fuel, etc.

btw, whoever posted that thing about a buddy's cousin's friend's car that got 22hp out of nothing more than a tune... I have to raise the BS flag on that. That car was modded or else something was really wrong before... there's got to be more to that story

Please note, I fully admit that I know very little about tuning at all. But I think logically. If nothing has changed on the car, what exactly are we changing with a "tune" that magically creates more power that when BMW was trying to do the same thing at the factory? The only thing I can think of is a tweak to optimize for higher octane fuel for those of us who know we won't be putting that crappy 87 grade in our tanks. And, in my experience, everything I've seen has shown an aftermarket tune on a stock car will generally yield something like 4whp. And that's almost in the margin of error...

The 7.5whp you got is on the higher end. Not to try to pick it apart, but, I'm curious if it was a back-to-back dyno on the same day? Same humidity, same air temperature? There are a lot of variables. And, if it all checks out, I admit I'm impressed, and I'd love to understand more about what is generating that extra 7.5whp.

The tricky thing with dyno charts is that you can only really use those that are done before and after on the same car, on the same dyno, and within a very short period of time so the weather is the same. Then you've got a good valid comparison. Especially when we're talking about gains in the single digits.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:23 PM   #27
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Oh, and, I will say this, the changes to the throttle maps and other little tweaks in an aftermarket tune can really "wake up" a car and make it feel a lot more responsive, even if there are only marginal increases on the dyno chart. So, I'm not going to say there aren't other benefits to an aftermarket tune. I'm just saying, don't expect a big gift from the horsepower fairy.
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Old 10-09-2015, 10:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rkneeshaw View Post
First, thank you Rob, I have a great deal of respect for you as well and I think we agree on pretty much everything.

To be more precise, I don't believe that you can get much more than a minor token increase in power by trying to further tune an otherwise unmodified car.

I do fully believe in and support tuning a car that has been modified in some way to change air density, temp, or flow, or different grades or types of fuel, etc.

btw, whoever posted that thing about a buddy's cousin's friend's car that got 22hp out of nothing more than a tune... I have to raise the BS flag on that. That car was modded or else something was really wrong before... there's got to be more to that story Here's how I personally interpret that 22 HP "Tune" story. Since the was NO mention of an E46, I immediately assume that it was on something like a Ford truck until proven otherwise...

Please note, I fully admit that I know very little about tuning at all. But I think logically. If nothing has changed on the car, what exactly are we changing with a "tune" that magically creates more power that when BMW was trying to do the same thing at the factory? The only thing I can think of is a tweak to optimize for higher octane fuel for those of us who know we won't be putting that crappy 87 grade in our tanks. And, in my experience, everything I've seen has shown an aftermarket tune on a stock car will generally yield something like 4whp. And that's almost in the margin of error...

The 7.5whp you got is on the higher end. Not to try to pick it apart, but, I'm curious if it was a back-to-back dyno on the same day? Same humidity, same air temperature? There are a lot of variables. And, if it all checks out, I admit I'm impressed, and I'd love to understand more about what is generating that extra 7.5whp. Same day & same conditions on the same dyno with about 30 minutes between the runs.

The tricky thing with dyno charts is that you can only really use those that are done before and after on the same car, on the same dyno, and within a very short period of time so the weather is the same. Then you've got a good valid comparison. Especially when we're talking about gains in the single digits.

All is good.



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Old 10-10-2015, 02:03 AM   #29
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btw, whoever posted that thing about a buddy's cousin's friend's car that got 22hp out of nothing more than a tune... I have to raise the BS flag on that. That car was modded or else something was really wrong before... there's got to be more to that story Here's how I personally interpret that 22 HP "Tune" story. Since the was NO mention of an E46, I immediately assume that it was on something like a Ford truck until proven otherwise...


It was a pre-facelift 330Ci with MS430037
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:08 AM   #30
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^that was a quote from rkneeshaw and not Rob43.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:02 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by daniel_f. View Post


It was a pre-facelift 330Ci with MS430037

OK.

But in all fairness, you did Not say what car it was in your original post,....I don't like to assume that it's a BMW 330 with MS43 unless that info is stated.



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Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
I Know How To Fix The Rear "Bouncing" Problem On Your Cheap Coilovers Like: Jom RL FK SE & RK.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:15 AM   #32
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Why would daniel f. post info on a completely different car in a 330i thread?
Especially as his vast expertise (probably more than the rest of us together) is about this engine and ecu?

I'm more interested in what was in that (to him fairly easy) tune and what particulary made the rise in HP (hence the question I asked about the ait setting)
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:44 AM   #33
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That's a rather broad question,....who knows why a lot guys do a lot of things that they do.

I will say that I'm glad the 22 HP (18 WHP) "Tune" was on a MS43 330 BMW. I wouldn't normally believe it from anyone,.... except Daniel, I believe it from him.



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Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
I Know How To Fix The Rear "Bouncing" Problem On Your Cheap Coilovers Like: Jom RL FK SE & RK.
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Old 10-10-2015, 12:02 PM   #34
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Same day & same conditions on the same dyno with about 30 minutes between the runs.
Then that's a dang good result IMO, best legit result that I've heard of honestly.

Quote:
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I will say that I'm glad the 22 HP (18 WHP) "Tune" was on a MS43 330 BMW. I wouldn't normally believe it from anyone,.... except Daniel, I believe it from him.
I get he impression that daniel.f really knows his stuff when it comes to tuning, given the way he's deconstructed the MS43 and other DMEs. But I'd love to understand how such a gain is possible.

Daniel, help me understand obi-wan.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:39 AM   #35
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18whp is a little optimistic on a stock car. Ive done ~10 repeatedly, adding another 10 to that requires fudging the knock corr tables im assuming...
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:26 PM   #36
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Vanos is turned off in the factory tune how do you know thats optimal? And to your emissions statement youre still ignoring the fact that they have to make the cats last 100k per federal law by if nothing else not melting them.

Again OEs have to tune for every possible circumstance, shitty gas, saving the cats, emissions, etc. Thus they HAVE to leave some left on the table. Youve never even tried 'tuning' a car yourself
That is optimal, Exhaust vanos is for low load emission(EGR) only, so you can disregard that. Intake vanos is for low rpm torque increase. After about 4000rpm both cams are at their mechanical base timing for maximum horsepower. That is optimal and there is nothing you can do there with a tune. That is optimal. You already admitted that MS43 has optimal ignition timing stock, so where do you get 10 power out of your tune?

A year ago Daniel did not even know how to load XDF file, go back and search his posts, he did not know much about tuning at all 2 years ago, and now he is an expert? Daniel does not even know how vanos works. And you weren't you Technica tuner distributor 4 years ago?
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:33 PM   #37
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That is optimal, Exhaust vanos is for low load emission(EGR) only, so you can disregard that. Intake vanos is for low rpm torque increase. After about 4000rpm both cams are at their mechanical base timing for maximum horsepower. That is optimal and there is nothing you can do there with a tune. That is optimal. You already admitted that MS43 has optimal ignition timing stock, so where do you get 10 power out of your tune?

A year ago Daniel did not even know how to load XDF file, go back and search his posts, he did not know much about tuning at all 2 years ago, and now he is an expert? Daniel does not even know how vanos works. And you weren't you Technica tuner distributor 4 years ago?

ABC


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Originally Posted by RacerX View Post
Nitrous is a little trickier than boost, but it's not the spray that kills motors, it's STUPIDITY!!
I Know How To Fix The Rear "Bouncing" Problem On Your Cheap Coilovers Like: Jom RL FK SE & RK.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:41 PM   #38
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That is optimal, Exhaust vanos is for low load emission(EGR) only, so you can disregard that. Intake vanos is for low rpm torque increase. After about 4000rpm both cams are at their mechanical base timing for maximum horsepower. That is optimal and there is nothing you can do there with a tune. That is optimal. You already admitted that MS43 has optimal ignition timing stock, so where do you get 10 power out of your tune?

A year ago Daniel did not even know how to load XDF file, go back and search his posts, he did not know much about tuning at all 2 years ago, and now he is an expert? Daniel does not even know how vanos works. And you weren't you Technica tuner distributor 4 years ago?
Was, yes. After realizing they didnt exactly know fully what they were doing i was forced to jump into this rodeo (after a bout with TRM as well).
The factory vanos timing is less than perfect as is the fueling/timing. You are incorrect in your assumption that after 4K the vanos is locked in a fixed position, if you looked at the vanos tables you would see this. Removing safeties for the factory cats also leaves some on the table. You again still refute this yet have no evidence to the contrary. If it wasnt going to be immediately 'absorbed' by the MS43 master tuner, i would post logs of my flashes. DISA Changeover is also subpar in stock form.



Factory DISA changover kept for instance:


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Old 10-13-2015, 10:30 PM   #39
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So on a stock car we're getting about 10whp just from retuning the VANOS to remove some emissions related safeties? And updating fuel maps and timing for 91-93AKI?
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:35 AM   #40
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So on a stock car we're getting about 10whp just from retuning the VANOS to remove some emissions related safeties? And updating fuel maps and timing for 91-93AKI?
BMW limit top end power by reducing camshaft overlap at high RPM.
The point of the discussion is that BMW bring the overlap timing back to the cams default/mechanical set point at high load/high rpm.

If you increase the overlap at high RPM, say to something equal to the mid range where its at max overlap, then invariably you'll make more power. More overlap improves cylinder filling.

Its the same with low rpm vanos maps.
There's torque gains to be had by reducing overlap at lower rpm.
BMW have set the warm vanos maps as a method to control EGR and exhaust emissions. They sacrifice low end torque for emissions.

For me personally I have reduced overlap at <3000 rpm (to match the warm up vanos maps) and increased overlap at high rpm. Low end torque is much improved, but I've not dynoed the car to determine top end power.

But as always YMMV
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