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Forced Induction Forum
Discuss supercharging, turbocharging and even nitrous and water injection here.

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Old 05-20-2014, 06:33 PM   #61
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I work for an engineering company, I'm now responsible for two lol.

Any shop with a lathe can easily do this, just make sure they dial it up correctly.
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Old 05-20-2014, 09:34 PM   #62
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one more question, any of you guys know how much psi are the Fuel Pressure in WOT with the ESS TS? I got 57 psi in WOT and 44 psi in idle....
Fuel pressure is determined by the pressure regulator on the integrated fuel filter/pressure regulator.

Since thats not altered by upgrading to TS2 it can be assumed to be around 3.5 bar.
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Old 05-20-2014, 11:23 PM   #63
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Jdjg was correct about my post, but it doesn't have to be extreme as the 272/256 (don't wanna scroll back). Jdjg has the theory accurate. There is a need to have a combination where your exhaust is higher than your intake. It's also how power is made in the American muscle car scene. The SC already compensates (and acts as a higher duration) by forcing more air in. Therefore, you need to move that air out more efficiently, thus the larger duration on the exhaust side. This is also why we port the exhaust side of the head slightly more than the intake side, to more efficiently move the gases.

If you are concerned about the slight lag from the larger duration intake cam (and it's very slight) you can do the bypass mod to have the valve close sooner which In turn - turns the the boost on slightly sooner. It's what I did because I went 260/268 on my cams.

Granted we are still working out the bugs for perfection, the car can and does break traction in all gears (I'm sure the 4.10 gears help) lol

I did my research before I ordered these custom cams. Lots of info on the difference between SC cams, turbo cams, and NA cams, as well as the reasons why.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:25 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by diablorojo View Post
Jdjg was correct about my post, but it doesn't have to be extreme as the 272/256 (don't wanna scroll back). Jdjg has the theory accurate. There is a need to have a combination where your exhaust is higher than your intake. It's also how power is made in the American muscle car scene. The SC already compensates (and acts as a higher duration) by forcing more air in. Therefore, you need to move that air out more efficiently, thus the larger duration on the exhaust side. This is also why we port the exhaust side of the head slightly more than the intake side, to more efficiently move the gases.

If you are concerned about the slight lag from the larger duration intake cam (and it's very slight) you can do the bypass mod to have the valve close sooner which In turn - turns the the boost on slightly sooner. It's what I did because I went 260/268 on my cams.

Granted we are still working out the bugs for perfection, the car can and does break traction in all gears (I'm sure the 4.10 gears help) lol

I did my research before I ordered these custom cams. Lots of info on the difference between SC cams, turbo cams, and NA cams, as well as the reasons why.

Nice work on the 260/268 cams.
I was going to get SC cams made from BMW cam blanks so the lobe centres were around 112-115 deg.
But I am just going to stay stock and live with what I got.

Can you post up a dyno chart of your Hp/Tq figures?
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:31 AM   #65
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I work for an engineering company, I'm now responsible for two lol.

Any shop with a lathe can easily do this, just make sure they dial it up correctly.
Mmmmm..... 20 psi pulley sounds good. (yes I know it would be to small)
But, in the future I might change the size of my crank pulley to get upto 20 psi.

Wish I had a lathe.. LOL
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:27 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by diablorojo View Post
Jdjg was correct about my post, but it doesn't have to be extreme as the 272/256 (don't wanna scroll back). Jdjg has the theory accurate. There is a need to have a combination where your exhaust is higher than your intake. It's also how power is made in the American muscle car scene. The SC already compensates (and acts as a higher duration) by forcing more air in. Therefore, you need to move that air out more efficiently, thus the larger duration on the exhaust side. This is also why we port the exhaust side of the head slightly more than the intake side, to more efficiently move the gases.

If you are concerned about the slight lag from the larger duration intake cam (and it's very slight) you can do the bypass mod to have the valve close sooner which In turn - turns the the boost on slightly sooner. It's what I did because I went 260/268 on my cams.

Granted we are still working out the bugs for perfection, the car can and does break traction in all gears (I'm sure the 4.10 gears help) lol

I did my research before I ordered these custom cams. Lots of info on the difference between SC cams, turbo cams, and NA cams, as well as the reasons why.
I did try and search previously, and since, of specs for the cams you used. I had no success.

My comments around the 272/256 cams with custom tune is based on this:

The 272 camshaft, part of the installed 'extra duration', is (6 crank degrees) on the closing side of the lobe.

With all engines overlap is important to clear the combustion chamber of exhaust gasses, one way or another.

With positive intake pressure higher than exhaust pressure, you will have a cool charge of air clear the chamber and out into the exhaust.

So if you running what should be an 8.5 psi kit, but your overlap is increased, more of this intake pressure would escape through overlap, and you may be left with a 5psi intake pressure, for example. A percentage would be lost, but could be compensated for with a smaller pulley.



Next problem would be tuning to allow for the extra clean air in the exhaust, as it would 'dilute' the exhaust gasses.

How would this benefit performance???

Below dyno is of a members car with 272/256 cams, Ts2+ pulley and tune, other than that the engine is bone stock (edit: has headers). Dyno dynamics, this car as a straight TS2+ should pull 280whp range (?), yet it is hitting 310whp at 6200rpm (5psi) until the dyno operator stopped due to lean fuel reading on the dyno. Car pulled no lean codes.

My theory is that the dyno wasn't allowing for the extra clean air being force into the exhaust during overlap.

I believe someone who is good with maths, and can tune these cars, could take full advantage of these cams and a smaller pulley. It may also be the case with the cams you have installed, but I can't find the info I need to compare.

If a tuner used these cams and didn't allow for the extra air, they could flood the chamber with too much fuel and see no power gain.

This is my opinion/theory, I will more than gladly stand corrected on this.

Would also be interested how this theory would work on a turbocharged engine, some of the compressed air and cooler exhaust through the turbo could gain even more advantage????
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:07 AM   #67
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I have suggested to the owner that he checks his fuels adaptions etc to ensure the injectors are keeping up, but unfortunately the mathematics to calculate expected a/f ratio compensating for the additional air is beyond me

It is pleasing to know though that the ESS tune has such great adaptability.
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:49 PM   #68
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This is from Chevy high performance magazine

I understand it's an American car mag, but the twinscrew doesn't care.

Cam Accordingly

Just as you don't want a high static compression with a supercharger, you don't want a long-duration, big-overlap camshaft, either. Since the incoming air is under pressure, the intake valve opens as the mixture rushes into the cylinder. If the exhaust valve is open, a portion of the air/fuel mixture will be pumped out of the exhaust system by the supercharger. In general terms, a camshaft with less than 240 degrees duration (measured at 0.050 inch lift) will work well. Camshaft overlap should be minimized with lobe centers in the area of 112-115 degrees. Many street-blower cams are ground on a dual-pattern profile to allow the exhaust more duration than the intake (with the intake closed). This is because the blower pumps more air/ fuel mixture into the cylinder on the intake stroke, but the exhaust needs to exit on its own, so the exhaust duration is increased. Most camshaft manufacturers offer cams specifically designed for blower motors.

Read more: http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...#ixzz32UWU7igj

Thoughts...
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:52 PM   #69
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That's for a car with a carby, injectors can be timed according to exhaust valve closing.
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:21 PM   #70
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Also, how else would ESS achieve the same boost with a larger pulley, different tune. And again, when people complain about af ratio on dyno result near the 12 figure, they say it is normal/ ok. I suspect ESS are all over this.

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Old 05-22-2014, 09:25 PM   #71
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Good points Davew, but I still would want to see dynos with all these variations. And ess makes some good products but the tuning for our non m cars is not optimal at all. Even my TS2 tune was redone by Eurocharged years ago and I picked up almost 20hp, so I doubt there cam calculation play a role. Also, remember they have to keep drivability and longevity in mind for the mild enthusiast that buys their kits. So they do not push the envelope very far in that regard. I am literally dying to see my dyno results, waiting on the ms43 harness to do the conversion and hopefully, have the tune run better on that platform.

At the end of the day, maybe we can get this info from members and actually have a ball park idea. I recognize it would be NEAR impossible with all the variables, but I have done things on worst odds...hahahaha
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:43 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Davew View Post
Also, how else would ESS achieve the same boost with a larger pulley, different tune. And again, when people complain about af ratio on dyno result near the 12 figure, they say it is normal/ ok. I suspect ESS are all over this.
Boost = Back-pressure

You can make wildly different power #s, with the same boost, by varying the engine's operating parameters. For example it's pretty common for people to install headers, add a smaller SC pulley, and see the same boost pressure but higher power output.

With VANOS, we can cheat pretty heavily on valve overlap timing...but the DME has a lot of cells to tune for this. (RPM, Engine load, coolant temp)
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:38 PM   #73
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Boost = Back-pressure

You can make wildly different power #s, with the same boost, by varying the engine's operating parameters. For example it's pretty common for people to install headers, add a smaller SC pulley, and see the same boost pressure but higher power output.

With VANOS, we can cheat pretty heavily on valve overlap timing...but the DME has a lot of cells to tune for this. (RPM, Engine load, coolant temp)
I think the point I am trying to make is that with our engines, with FI and a free flowing exhaust, additional overlap will show a lean condition on an exhaust analyser due to the dilution caused by additional clean air during overlap.

I think if you were tuning for more overlap on a dyno, you would have to allow for this additional air in af reading. I don't believe that the dyno above is showing the actual true af reading.

I have been reading a lot of posts on here where people are having trouble tuning different kits, and where people are installing cams with greater overlap and loosing boost, returning bad af.

I don't believe that tuning an FI multi point engine, with a free flowing exhaust and additional overlap is going to work to well with an exhaust sniffer.

If you calculated the extra flow, timed the injector after the exhaust valve closes, I think it could be a good combination with overlap.

A lot of the idealology I have read on sc's, seems to correspond more so to carby and centre point, not multi point with vanos.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:43 PM   #74
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I would also suggest that a bit more overlap and a smaller pulley to compensate could have great benefits power wise for our engines, but as above, it seems people are struggling to tune because they are trying to get an impossible af exhaust reading.
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Old 05-23-2014, 03:54 AM   #75
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Makes a very nice difference, 78mm, and I stand corrected on a previous post, my original pulley was 81mm.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:15 AM   #76
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Good points Davew, but I still would want to see dynos with all these variations. And ess makes some good products but the tuning for our non m cars is not optimal at all. Even my TS2 tune was redone by Eurocharged years ago and I picked up almost 20hp, so I doubt there cam calculation play a role. Also, remember they have to keep drivability and longevity in mind for the mild enthusiast that buys their kits. So they do not push the envelope very far in that regard. I am literally dying to see my dyno results, waiting on the ms43 harness to do the conversion and hopefully, have the tune run better on that platform.

At the end of the day, maybe we can get this info from members and actually have a ball park idea. I recognize it would be NEAR impossible with all the variables, but I have done things on worst odds...hahahaha
Have a look at the dyno I posted previously, that would be around 260rwkw at 6200rpm on a dyno jet, ts2+ tune, 272/256 cams, headers, nothing else. ESS ts2+ would be 213wkw at that rpm with the 248/256 cams. It still has another 1000rpm to redline.
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Old 05-23-2014, 05:23 AM   #77
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I will talk to a few engineers at work on Monday, see if one of them will do the calcs on a corrected fuel to air ratio, compensating for the extra duration, etc. But as it stands, I seriously want to chuck out my 248, and throw a 272 in
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:27 AM   #78
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Car will be going on dyno once exhaust is done, but initial thoughts on pulley:

Noticeable torque increase, can feel it on the butt dyno. Pulls harder.

1st gear seems a lot shorter, the 2.93 rear end feels great with the added torque. I do still want an LSD, but ratio feels right.

Under acceleration in 2nd, car punches up to original boost pressure fast, higher rpm the pressure builds and the car felt like it had gained 500rpm at redline, hard to explain, but there is more up top.

Was it a slap in the face like going from ts2 to ts2+ with a technik stage 3 head and decat, no.

Am I grinning, yes
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:37 AM   #79
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Have also updated first post, removed old/ new details until I get further details, seems very inconsistent as to who receives what pulley with which stage. I bought my TS2+ upgrade in the last 12 months and did receive the 81mm pulley, yet another member received the 83mm in the last months. Very confusing.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:10 AM   #80
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Have also updated first post, removed old/ new details until I get further details, seems very inconsistent as to who receives what pulley with which stage. I bought my TS2+ upgrade in the last 12 months and did receive the 81mm pulley, yet another member received the 83mm in the last months. Very confusing.

yes, Im the one who bought the TS2+ few months ago and came in my SC kit the 85mm from the TS2 and the 83mm in the TS2+ update


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