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Old 11-22-2016, 06:38 AM   #1
sebograf
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Throttle body adaption and running rich

Throttle body adaption going bad really fast and car running rich...

Hey guys and hi from germany!

ive been reading alot here and i feel that this is the right place for my problem, there is alot of great e46 knowledge around. so heres my first post:

Last year i bought a 2003 325 Ci SMG. From the beginning i had some minor issues, that kept me going crazy because i couldn't find a solution. car has now close to 85000 miles.

When downshifting (especially from 3rd to 2nd gear) the car was jerking alot. It felt like it couldn't find the right rpm or i dont know. i took the car to my dealer to update the smg and dme software and things looked bright afterwards. No jerking, no shaking, car running smooth. but the issue came back. one day i noticed that i can get rid of the issue by removing the battery -> resetting all the adaption values.
At first i thought my lambda adaption was the key. i changed maf, disa, spark plugs, ignition coils (all original, no cheap ebay stuff) and vanos rings (beisan). the issues got better, but theres still a jerking. i replaced the smg oil just to be sure, but it looked good.
after some time i also got clutch juttering when taking off (first and even second gear after accelerating from a near stop). i thought about replacing the clutch, but sometimes the car was driving just fine. i also replaced both camshaft sensor.
i knew that deleting the adaption values was helping for a moment, so i checked every option time after time until i found out, that both issues are gone for some time after resetting the throttle body adaption. (because of electric throttle body i can reset it with key on igniton 2 and pushing the gas pedal all to the bottom for 10 seconds).
i started doing some test drives with testo (and now obd fusion) to check the tps values, the pedal sensor values but i think they are all ok. but what could cause the throttle body adaption to go bad over a week?
if i go full throttle and keep pushing the car, the adaption stays okaish for longer times, but thats often not possible, especially when getting to work in rush hour.
what could be the cause?

the second issue is, that my car is running rich. its not that bad at -2 to -3, but enough to check it. i read here that most of the time its the maf (but its new and values are ok), the o2 sensors (could be the next thing on my list to replace them, but the values aren't looking that bad) or a injector problem. i recently cleaned all my injectors in an ultrasonic bath and replaced all the o-rings, but values still the same.

i logged some obd-fusion csv files like jfoj wrote in the pdf.

cold idle: https://www.dropbox.com/s/24ettikb9j..._idle.csv?dl=0
warm idle: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ghauw6r5e..._idle.csv?dl=0
highway: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hyae96wxfp...ghway.csv?dl=0

whats interesting is, that on the highway ride my values get better, but suddenly drop from -1.5 to -3 without a big change in every other value (row 568 and following).

is this perhaps pointing to a bad injector thats dripping? or could there be another reason to drop that fast without the short term values indicating something?

Last edited by sebograf; 11-23-2016 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 11-23-2016, 09:43 AM   #2
sebograf
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I added a obd fusion report:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ebwxreg7q8...11-23.pdf?dl=0
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:48 AM   #3
jfoj
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I see you have Log files, but something went wrong with the .CSV file structure and the data is not in the proper columns.

Not 100% sure but it looks like your files are with a semi colon ( rather than comma (,) delimited??

So there is no structure to the data files.

First time I have seen a Diagnostic Report taken while driving!!! Not a problem, but I would like to also see one at warm idle.

What I can see is the MAF reading in the Diagnostic Report was 3.2 g/s which is what the minimum idle would be at idle, however the engine RPM was 2084 RPM @ 48kph/28 MPH. The was in decel likely with Fuel Cut Off, but I would still expect to see the airflow higher??

The MAF may be under reporting due to an air leak (doubtful due to the negative Fuel Trim values), the MAF female terminals loose or the MAF is just soft!

I will try to look again for more info, but I will be busy the next few days.
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Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

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Old 11-23-2016, 02:44 PM   #4
sebograf
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Hey jfof,

thanks for looking into it.
I ran a new report at warm idle:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/na338ty95l...-23-2.pdf?dl=0

With the csv files...
i had them open in excel and seperated the data into coloums, maybe thats the problem.
they should be better now and have the correct comma delimiter.
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:56 PM   #5
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebograf View Post
Hey jfof,

thanks for looking into it.
I ran a new report at warm idle:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/na338ty95l...-23-2.pdf?dl=0

With the csv files...
i had them open in excel and seperated the data into coloums, maybe thats the problem.
they should be better now and have the correct comma delimiter.
I will look at this file, but do not even oven the file, just upload it directly as the App formats it, this will be fine.

Also with the Diagnostic Report, it is in a HTML format, you do not need to convert it to a PDF.

Also go back and re-read the PDF in this thread, I just updated it a few days ago - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1097893

Something is strange with the Polling Interval. You may also want to edit the edit the Lat & Long out of your original reports and turn off the Lat & Long under GPS.

Keep it simple!
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 11-23-2016 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:28 PM   #6
MTX-4
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Not intended to hijack your thread. But I have the exact issue as yours despite your Short Term Fuel Trims looked much tamer than mine. The STFTs of my 2003 March made M54 (2.2L Euro version) has a wider variation between +/- 5% and occasionally +/-10%. The LTFTs ranges from -1.4 to -5.4% both banks. I had put in a bottle of injector cleaner and it seemed to reduce the LTFTs a bit. Since you have your injectors ultrasound cleaned so I believe those are not the issue.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:54 AM   #7
sebograf
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Hey MTX-4,

no problems, i hope that i can find some more guys with the same problem, perhaps one has found a solution.

I did a new log drive this morning,

here are the files (without touching anything )

1) Cold idle (3 degrees celsius outside temp): https://www.dropbox.com/s/54datn4d46...75247.csv?dl=0
2) highway (only 3:26 of highway today on my way to work): https://www.dropbox.com/s/bi4f7smi2t...80722.csv?dl=0
3) warm idle (a bit longer because i was running the report at the same time): https://www.dropbox.com/s/i4o7coo7nt...81913.csv?dl=0

and if someone's interested, here are the other parts:
1b) after cold idle to the highway: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ssv1iq37hl...75843.csv?dl=0
2b) after the highway to my destination (and the warm idle): https://www.dropbox.com/s/wy1pvug16k...81125.csv?dl=0

and finally the diagnostic report: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7y2dqnsodi...2-02.html?dl=0

perhaps someone has a clue, whats the problem with my car.
i don't know if thats a cause, but i watched my maf readings drop from 4.0 g/s when starting this morning (when idle was down to 700 rpm) to 3.1 g/s when reaching my destination. Is that right? Why is it dropping when the car warms up?

Perhaps another hint, that could lead to a solution:
After driving the car until its warm, the next drive will be really smooth, if the car is has not cooled down completely again.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:24 AM   #8
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Hi Sebograf

I have searched extensively through different e46 forums. It looks like negative fuel trims are rare on M52/M54. Most normal running M52/M54 should have small positive LTFTs.

Some reported the issue was rectified by cleaning/tweaking of the MAF connectors. Some reported CCV, which connects to a fuel pressure regulator in a M52, was the cause. One said a crossed Post Cat Sensors wires is causing the issue.

My gut feeling is that, one of the two critical sensors which contribute to the fuel trims, i.e. MAF (recently replaced with VDO\Siemens) and Pre Cat Sensors, is causing this issue. I have just replaced the pre cat sensors with Bosch 13477 and the negative fuel trims seem to reduce a bit. The original pre cat sensors were about 80k miles old.

I haven't driven the car for long after the replacement. I will keep a close monitoring of the figures and report later.
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Old 12-02-2016, 03:44 AM   #9
MTX-4
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Two points to note :

1) I saw output of your Bank 2 Oxygen Sensor 1 intermittently went to zero. It should swing between 0.1 - 0.8V and should never go to zero volt. May be connection getting loose.
2) A relatively low MAF output of 3.1 g/s after a long journey could be due to fuel evaporation from the engine oil which get recirculated into the intake manifold. It is combustible so ICV is shutted further down trying to keep the idling rpm stable. Just a guess.

Waiting jfoj to comment.
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Old 12-02-2016, 07:55 AM   #10
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sebograf,

I do not want to comment quite yet about the data.

I have some questions/concerns and I am not sure what is going on.

It seems like the REAL interval of Log data may be too spread out.

I see that the actual Log interval is 1 second as I have typically requested, however, the PID response appears to be too slow which is a bit puzzling.

Can you tell me if you are running Android or iProducts?

What interface are you using?

What is the Sample Time set to under the Log Setup?

Something is wrong with the PID response and I need to figure out what is going on.

If you could run one random Log for about 3-4 minutes after changing the Log Sample time from 1000 msec to 100 msec this may help with the PID response.

Sorry for this, not sure if a typo in the procedure is causing this or something else is going on.

I have an idea about what may be going on, but I would like to see your responses and the random Log with 100 msec Log Sample time.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 12-02-2016, 09:01 AM   #11
sebograf
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Hi jfoj,

thanks for getting back at me.

I'm using an iphone with this obd reader.

Current sample time is 1000 msec in the log settings.

i will post the random log as soon as i get back to the car.

Last edited by sebograf; 12-02-2016 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 12-02-2016, 12:22 PM   #12
jfoj
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I kind of thought you might be running an iPhone.

What OBDII interface are you running? The VeePeak or a different interface?

Is it configured as Wifi or Low Energy Bluetooth?

I think there is something up with the iProduct polling for some reason, but have not put my finger on it yet.

Will wait to see what the 100 ms Log Sample Time looks like.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:06 PM   #13
sebograf
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I'm running the veepeak interface, iphone is connected via wifi.
but i might have a problem with the polling speed, the dashboard is kinda slow and laggy and only updates every 3 to 5 seconds.

here is the 100 msec logging file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/okwd12m3mq...93818.csv?dl=0
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:51 PM   #14
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Thanks for running this Log with the faster Sampling Time interval.

I have to try and normalize the Logs and see if there is a difference.

I rarely use iProducts, but I have noticed the slow Gauge update on the Dashboards and have had some concern, but have not had a chance to get to the bottom of things.

Not sure if the problem is the interface, phone, App or a combination of them?

I will try to grab some Logs over the weekend, but I do not think I have a good car to play with close at hand to compare results against.

Something does appear to be up with the iProducts/VeePeak/OBDFusion combination.

Grab another cold start Log in the morning for about 4-5 minutes and I will compare the difference in the Logs.

Sorry for the delay and extra work, but this may benefit everyone at the end of the day.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 12-02-2016, 04:49 PM   #15
sebograf
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I will run another cold idle tomorrow, no problem.
i have a few other devices i could try, namely an ipad and an android phone (if my girlfriend lets me borrow it ).
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Old 12-03-2016, 10:05 AM   #16
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Heres the cold idle from this morning (-1 degree celsius): https://www.dropbox.com/s/0e4dmu4mz3...153-1.csv?dl=0
tried to run obd fusion on my ipad, same results as with the phone. might be the interface...
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:32 PM   #17
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Why are we setting a specific sample time? All that happens is that you get a lot of redundant data. I use "Trigger on PID frame". The sample time for me winds up being ~3 seconds, which I'd like to be more frequent, but when I set mine to 1 sec, it just keeps repeating the data. I think it has more to do with the version of Bluetooth that the devices have.

Also, is anyone using graphs for data? I have been using this for a while and it's much easier to see what's going on that way. I can put together a writeup on how to do that if there's interest. Example from a cold start:
Click image for larger version

Name:	graph cold start.png
Views:	61
Size:	66.9 KB
ID:	646474

As you can see, the fuel rate does settle down as the car warms up, even after the idle hits 700 rpm.

I don't think there's an issue if the LTFTs are in the +/- 8% range.
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Old 12-04-2016, 09:15 PM   #18
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dothehundo View Post
Why are we setting a specific sample time? All that happens is that you get a lot of redundant data. I use "Trigger on PID frame". The sample time for me winds up being ~3 seconds, which I'd like to be more frequent, but when I set mine to 1 sec, it just keeps repeating the data. I think it has more to do with the version of Bluetooth that the devices have.

Also, is anyone using graphs for data? I have been using this for a while and it's much easier to see what's going on that way. I can put together a writeup on how to do that if there's interest. Example from a cold start:
Attachment 646474

As you can see, the fuel rate does settle down as the car warms up, even after the idle hits 700 rpm.

I don't think there's an issue if the LTFTs are in the +/- 8% range.
While I appreciate your comments and some things are accurate, there are reasons why I want things done a specific way.

You are a bit new around here at least when you signed up, so I do not think you have the entire picture of what is going on.

I have looked at using trigger on PID Frame, but the refresh rate is typically too slow, especially when I am trying to get the full picture of what is going on. I realize there is redundant data with the way I have requested Logs to be gathered, but this rarely is a problem for me.

At this point there is something up with either the Wifi interface or iProduct version of the App that I have not had a chance to get my head around, only so many hours in the day. I have to run some tests to see if where the problem is, I also have about 6 different wireless interfaces, so I should be able to narrow down what is going on.

About the question of using graphs for data, this is ALL I use. I probably have 5-10 graphs per Log I look at. You are probably going to say why am I asking for Log files? I have been doing this a LONG time, what I find is I need the raw data, if I rely on people to produce graphs, there are too many limitations and too many unknowns and usually there is no Legend or a very poor Legend. I also do not always know what I need to look for and how I need to compare PID data. I often have to look at things from MANY angles and I cannot do this if I am provided graphs.

Then you may say, how come I do not post graphs. I have no more attachment space on the forum, so I cannot post any pictures or attachments. I often provide graphs back for the OP to post in the thread, but this also takes a lot of my effort to get the graphs converted to .jpg and upload them to DropBox. I do this occasionally, but not regularly.

As for Fuel Rate, this is not of much use from my point of view, it is fictitious value that is not directly pulled from the DME/ECU. It is calculated based on other parameters and I have not seen this as a very accurate and reliable tool. Maybe I will take another look at some of these "calculated" values, but I prefer to work with Live data.

To your last comment about LTFT's not being a problem if they are in the +/- 8% range. Not sure where you are coming from and what background you have but historically these cars will trigger Lean codes at 10%! So if your car is hovering around 8% on a regular basis, there is NO margin of error before there is a DTC triggered for a fuel mixture problem.

I have looked at literally hundreds of these cars and thousands of cars overall. Each make and model has its own peculiarities and I know what a "good" E46 typically looks like. LTFT should really never be Negative and anything above +3.5 LTFT should raise eyebrows and concern for anyone. At +5% or greater you SHOULD be taking action to understand, identify and correct the LTFT values.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 12-04-2016, 10:08 PM   #19
dothehundo
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Cool. I've been seeing you helping people, posting data for you to review, and was just trying to make things easier, though you've got a good point about people doing things in different ways. I know that any changes in the data structure, one missed column or something out of order, will break any graph template that gets set up. So what you're saying makes perfect sense.

I know I'm new here, but I'm not new to this, I've been doing datalogging for a while now myself. When I first started, nobody was doing it, and nobody understood what I was doing it for, so I set off on my own. I know my way around data and spreadsheets. I've got a file that makes a bunch of different charts, that I've been adding onto for years. I figured I might be able to help out a forum that has given me lots of helpful information.

I know about the 10% line, which is why I said 8%. Mine sat around 5-8% for months (compared to other cars I've logged, the E46 LTFT moves very infrequently) and then went down to 3-4% when the weather got cooler, so I wonder if maybe that doesn't play a factor in this? It all comes down to air/fuel ratio (and assumptions about AFR) and that's based off air density and temperature, which makes me wonder if I might have been worrying too much.

I still think that trigger on PID is the way to go, but do things how you want to And I think which version of BT the devices have will be the key to understanding the data rate limitations. I want to get more frequent data myself.

I personally use fuel rate because my spreadsheet is setup to integrate fuel rate to give trip MPG, trip fuel used, fuel saved during fuel cut, etc. It almost directly correlates to air flow and it's easier for me to visualize, and it's not completely inaccurate, though the values are completely wrong during open loop, I know this and adjust for it.

And I hope nothing I say here comes off like I've got hurt feelings. We're all here together trying to figure out these complicated cars
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Old 12-05-2016, 05:20 AM   #20
dothehundo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebograf View Post
i knew that deleting the adaption values was helping for a moment, so i checked every option time after time until i found out, that both issues are gone for some time after resetting the throttle body adaption. (because of electric throttle body i can reset it with key on igniton 2 and pushing the gas pedal all to the bottom for 10 seconds).
i started doing some test drives with testo (and now obd fusion) to check the tps values, the pedal sensor values but i think they are all ok. but what could cause the throttle body adaption to go bad over a week?
I looked at the drive logs, and your throttle values don't look OK to me. Your Absolute throttle position (%) are between 10 and 15 the entire time, it looks like an almost straight line on the graph. On mine, for a comparison example, I see a range from 9 to 97.

Does your throttle response feel coarse? Were these taken shortly after an adaptation reset, or after a while when it settled back to its odd behavior?
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