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Old 03-02-2017, 11:56 AM   #21
jfoj
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Leave the fuel injectors alone, do not pull the fuel rail off the car. Fuel injectors are RARELY a problem.

You already move the coil and it did not change anything.

You also said the problem was intermittent.

Most likely a combination of problems. One or more vacuum leaks and probably a leaking DISA O-ring and a broken DISA.

You need to read the first post in this link at least 3 times - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Assuming you searched and are smart you would buy the OBDFusion App.

You need to gather Freeze Frame and Fuel Trim data.

Read the PDF in this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1097893

Be prepared to perform a Smoke Test, you will find all the air leaks in seconds.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-02-2017, 01:29 PM   #22
TobyB
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...but yes, if you have a fuel pump, a spare regulator, a 9v battery and some plumbing and a graduated cylinder, you can do some basic tests on fuel injectors
It probably won't catch something intermittent.

Agreed that checking the 'usual suspects' for air leaks is a good idea- a cracked boot that only leaks when the engine shifts, for example-
but I WOULD, while in there, look at wiring, especially on the injector side. Since the ECU can diagnose coils, I'd look at that wiring less critically.
But I'd still look at all of it. And grounds. And battery voltage. And all of the usual little things that cause problems on these cars.

fwiw,

t

Last edited by TobyB; 03-02-2017 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 04:52 PM   #23
jfoj
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The DME can also monitor the health of the injector wiring just like it can for coils and other sensors. This is a standard part of the OBDII requirement.

Injectors are actually very durable for what they do and rarely are points of failure.

Smoke Test should be the first step here, it will cost you $15 at most. If everything under the hood is original, you will have one or more vacuum leak.

If the DISA O-ring has not been installed and DISA has never been inspected, this is 2 Torx bolts and 1 connector to remove for inspection once you have access to it.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 03-03-2017 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 07:40 PM   #24
Dogthebountyhunter
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You do not have a code scanner so there really isn't anyway to help you. If it is a misfire with fuel cutoff on cylinder 3, then swapping plugs coils, boots etc. is not going to fix it. It also will not follow the coils or plugs because the ecu has cut off fuel as a safety precaution. The code needs to be cleared in order to restore fuel to that specific cylinder. The ecu doesn't restore fuel from a restart. Code must be erased! First thing you should do is go grab a 20$ scanner from pep boys and erase the codes. Or maybe you can try to unplug the battery and plug it back in.
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:39 PM   #25
jfoj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogthebountyhunter View Post
You do not have a code scanner so there really isn't anyway to help you. If it is a misfire with fuel cutoff on cylinder 3, then swapping plugs coils, boots etc. is not going to fix it. It also will not follow the coils or plugs because the ecu has cut off fuel as a safety precaution. The code needs to be cleared in order to restore fuel to that specific cylinder. The ecu doesn't restore fuel from a restart. Code must be erased! First thing you should do is go grab a 20$ scanner from pep boys and erase the codes. Or maybe you can try to unplug the battery and plug it back in.


Ok, where to start.

The code(s) DO NOT need to be cleared to remove the Fuel Cut Off. Shutting the engine off for 15 seconds will clear the Fuel Cut Off. If you have an OBDII tool, clearing codes will also remove the Fuel Cut Off, but also Fuel Cut Off is also cleared after a specific amount of engine run time as well. So there are many options for the Fuel Cut Off to be cleared/removed.

Disconnecting the battery WILL NOT clear codes unless it is disconnected for weeks or months. This is part of the OBDII standard. So do not even think or worry about disconnecting the battery, it will not help matters.

Yes, the OP needs an OBDII tool, he should get the OBDFusion App as suggested. Buying a cheap OBDII tool at the local parts store is a total waste of money. For the same money you can have an OBDII App that will blow the local parts store tool away.

If the OP has found the problem cylinder by using a borrowed OBDII tool, if the coil is bad or if the intake boot is torn, swapping or replacing these items could fix the problem even without an OBDII tool, but at this point we do not have enough data to fully understand what is going on.

The OP should do what I suggested and read the link I provided and perform a Smoke Test to find or rule out intake and crankcase air leaks then move on once this test is performed.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 03-03-2017 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 03:19 AM   #26
sweetbeats
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So that was actually pretty easy...injectors are out.

But...

Now what?

They all appear the same (i.e. can't tell visually if one hasn't been working), don't have the equipment or know-how to test them (I remember years ago testing the injectors on my '81 Bosch CIS equipped VW MkI Scirocco...but this is quite different... ), and can't figure out how to test the wiring because the harness dives down under the intake manifold...I was assuming it went to the ECU like the ignition wiring but it doesn't appear to do so.

Sorry to be so daft.

Is it time to just shotgun the injectors and get a new set since the car has 212,000 miles on it, and I've reasonably ruled out the ignition coils and wiring as the cause? The seals on the injectors look fair-thee-well *had*.

I suppose I could swap two of the injectors...

What do you guys use to clean the injectors ports in the intake manifold? Carb cleaner?

EDIT

Well sh!t I just now see there is an entire second page of posts I didn't see before. Sorry guys. Gonna stop and read.

Last edited by sweetbeats; 03-03-2017 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 04:01 AM   #27
sweetbeats
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Okay I am caught up on the posts.

DISA valve inspected and O-ring replaced within the last year, intake boot inspected and related vacuum leak repaired.

It is definitely a problem with a specific cylinder, #3, because when I pull the coil from the spark plug on that cylinder and only that cylinder the rough running doesn't change. Pull any other coil and the engine runs worse.

ELM-327 for iOS will be here by Monday, and I will be purchasing and installing the suggested app.

Should I just do nothing at this point until I scan codes?

Last edited by sweetbeats; 03-03-2017 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 06:40 AM   #28
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Even though the DISA O-ring was replaced last year, I would still pull the DISA and check it mechanically and make sure it still holds vacuum.

Pull the 9 and 52 pin DME connectors and inspect for coolant or oil ingress.

DME coolant damage is outlined in the thread link I posted under #6 and also check #7 which required complete removal of and opening of the DME to find out of the coil driver transistor(s) are damaged.

Most people do not buy new injectors, they will send them to online companies that clean, flow test and refurbish the injectors. Costs about $20-$25 per injector as I recall? One such company is Witchhunter.com, but search and you will find many similar companies.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 03-03-2017 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 03-03-2017, 07:44 AM   #29
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Jfoj is correct a restart of car can remove fuel cut off.

I used to remove it whilst driving using torque and clear codes function. Used to wish there was an inbuilt button which you can press to reset codes - would use it everyday back then. Mine would cut off random cylinders and was related to incorrect connected o2 sensors.

Don't go buying ALL new injectors . But since u have removed them now have you tried swapping around and seeing what happens?
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Old 03-03-2017, 10:07 AM   #30
sweetbeats
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I haven't tried swapping any injectors, but I'd like to do that and see what happens.

What do you guys use to clean the injector ports in the manifold and the injector bodies before reinstallation? Carb cleaner?

@jfoj: I will for sure read the threads in the links you posted, will check out the 9 and 52 pin DME connectors and reinspect the DISA valve.

Thanks, guys.

Last edited by sweetbeats; 03-03-2017 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:12 PM   #31
sweetbeats
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I'm so frustrated.

I received my ELM-327 interface today. The eBay listing indicated iOS compatibility in the listing title, but what they sent is not iOS compatible according to the manufacturer (it's a viecar VC003-B ODBII interface). Waiting to hear back from the Seller.

I swapped the #2 and #3 injectors, and there's no change. #3 is still not firing. At least it's not running worse after pulling everything apart and putting it back together.

I know for sure it is #3 because when I pull each ignition coil from its spark plug one at a time the engine runs worse for each one except for #3; when I pull #3 there's no change...I now realize I can hear the spark arcing for each plug when I pull each coil, so I believe each cylinder is getting spark. And because I swapped the #2 and #3 injectors and the problem stayed on #3, I don't believe it's an injector problem. So it's injector wiring or something upstream of that.

I know there's not much more to do until I can pull codes. I am still going to check the DISA valve and o-ring and check for vacuum leaks, but it isn't a global problem I'm having. It is specific to cylinder #3.

Last edited by sweetbeats; 03-04-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 03-04-2017, 09:16 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbeats View Post
I'm so frustrated.

I received my ELM-327 interface today. The eBay listing indicated iOS compatibility in the listing title, but what they sent is not iOS compatible according to the manufacturer (it's a viecar VC003-B ODBII interface). Waiting to hear back from the Seller. .
The problem is NOT the seller, it is the fact that few if any OBDII Apps on iProducts support Bluetooth, they do support Low Energy Bluetooth or Wifi.

If you search, I have posted OVER and OVER and OVER again what is required, but for your convenience, here is the information:


If you have a smart phone or table, get an OBDII App and interface so you can read the codes along with Live/Realtime or Freeze Frame data then you will know exactly what is going on with the engine fuel management system.

The OBDFusion App and proper VeePeak interface from Amazon are less than $30 for both for iProducts, less than $20 for both for Android

OBDFusion for Android is is $3.99.

https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-Bluet...peak+bluetooth

OBDFusion, for the iProducts it is $9.99.

For iProducts you NEED a Wifi adapter or LE Bluetooth adapter which are more expensive and VeePeak does not offer these yet..

iProducts requires Wifi - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WPW6BAE...ywords=veepeak

The adapter links I posted were some of the cheapest and smallest interfaces at the time, you should search and see if there are others that may be slightly cheaper but from what I have found the VeePeak interfaces have few, if any complaints. You can also get similar interfaces on ebay, but BE VERY CAREFUL where the seller is located. You can wait WEEKS for an interface from Asia either via Amazon or ebay. You can a US seller that has inventory in the US. I ALWAYS make sure any Amazon items CLEARLY state "Fulfilled By Amazon" before I pull the trigger.


Or for iOS and Bluetooth see special note below.

This info is new/hot off the press, OBDFusion WILL be supporting Bluetooth on iOS.

BUT, PLEASE NOTE. For iOS to support BT it apparently has to be some Low Energy version of Bluetooth. There are only a few of the Low Energy BT interfaces on the market at the moment, or at least that OBDFusion developers have fully tested.

The LELink Bluetooth LE adapter.

Check on Amazon for LELink info and pricing.

The Carista Bluetooth LE adapter.

http://www.caristaapp.com/hardware/

So for the basic OBFusion, you are at $30 or less for iProducts using a Wifi interface or slightly more if you choose a Bluetooth LE interface and under $20 for Android. Very worth while once you find out what you can do with these Apps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbeats View Post

I swapped the #2 and #3 injectors, and there's no change. #3 is still not firing. At least it's not running worse after pulling everything apart and putting it back together.

I know for sure it is #3 because when I pull each ignition coil from its spark plug one at a time the engine runs worse for each one except for #3; when I pull #3 there's no change...I now realize I can hear the spark arcing for each plug when I pull each coil, so I believe each cylinder is getting spark. And because I swapped the #2 and #3 injectors and the problem stayed on #3, I don't believe it's an injector problem. So it's injector wiring or something upstream of that.

I know there's not much more to do until I can pull codes. I am still going to check the DISA valve and o-ring and check for vacuum leaks, but it isn't a global problem I'm having. It is specific to cylinder #3.
Smoke Test, DISA removal and inspection, DME removal and opening it up for inspection is about all you can do with no useful data at this point.

As I have stated and posted before, almost everything you need to check and inspect is outlined in this thread - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

This includes opening the DME and looking for a damaged coil trigger chip for the #3 coil.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-05-2017, 09:31 AM   #33
Geo31
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OP, as jfoj said, get the right ELM327. I have two iOS devices and the WiFi adapter works great. Easily worth the time and money.

jfoj is a great resource for this forum (and others). Do try to follow his advice. It's rock solid. I know how frustrating it is to give the right advice and someone not follow it.

I'm in the process of gathering the parts to build a nice smoke tester at a reasonable cost. These cars are already old and things will keep happening to them, so in my case, it's worth it to me to make a paint can smoked tester as I'm sure it will get more use than I'd like if I keep the car as a DD for a long time (I'm driving exactly the car I want to drive so I have NO interest in buying something else, even though I easily could).
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:06 PM   #34
Dogthebountyhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post


Ok, where to start.

The code(s) DO NOT need to be cleared to remove the Fuel Cut Off. Shutting the engine off for 15 seconds will clear the Fuel Cut Off. If you have an OBDII tool, clearing codes will also remove the Fuel Cut Off, but also Fuel Cut Off is also cleared after a specific amount of engine run time as well. So there are many options for the Fuel Cut Off to be cleared/removed.

Disconnecting the battery WILL NOT clear codes unless it is disconnected for weeks or months. This is part of the OBDII standard. So do not even think or worry about disconnecting the battery, it will not help matters.

Yes, the OP needs an OBDII tool, he should get the OBDFusion App as suggested. Buying a cheap OBDII tool at the local parts store is a total waste of money. For the same money you can have an OBDII App that will blow the local parts store tool away.

If the OP has found the problem cylinder by using a borrowed OBDII tool, if the coil is bad or if the intake boot is torn, swapping or replacing these items could fix the problem even without an OBDII tool, but at this point we do not have enough data to fully understand what is going on.

The OP should do what I suggested and read the link I provided and perform a Smoke Test to find or rule out intake and crankcase air leaks then move on once this test is performed.
In my experience leaving the engine run for a while hasn't cleared the fuel cut off. Last time I changed plugs boots and coils, (pm, nothing was wrong with the car ), I absoulutely could not get #2 to stop missing. the only thing that took care of it was clearing the code. I didn't think pulling the battery was a great idea but I figure it's worth a shot since op didn't have a scanner and already went through the trouble of pulling coils to find a miss. Pulling the battery has cleared codes on two other obd2 cars for me. Never tried it on my beemer. Obviously a auto parts store scanner is a waste if your doing any real diagnostic work, but instead of pulling coils to find the misfire , op could have scanned it and knew which cylinder was the problem And cleared the code. Which most likely would of solved the problem unless something more serious was going on. If there are other ways to clear fuel cut off, none of them have worked for me in the past. Leaving it run to try and clear a Mis fire code can also cause a crank shaft position code which will confuse op even more.

Your advice is helpful as always, the problem is op hasn't even scanned for codes or cleared any.

T,dr; I had same exact situation as op. Clearing codes was the only way my fuel cut off went away for good.

Last edited by Dogthebountyhunter; 03-05-2017 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 01:34 AM   #35
sweetbeats
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@jfoj and all, I really do appreciate the advice, and I really hope everybody understands I'm not trying to frustrate anybody. I DID try to follow the advice regarding the ELM-327, and what the Seller sent is not what was in the listing. I was looking for an iProduct compatible device that utilizes wifi, not BT, and what was sent is a model that is BT only and not compatible with iProducts...and not what the listing detail stated. I didn't order the wrong thing, the Seller's description didn't match the item sent.

Anyway, please know my intention is to do everything I can to follow the excellent advice I'm getting. I really appreciate it.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:46 AM   #36
jfoj
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$17, it works, you can have it in 2 days - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WPW6BAE..._vl_convert-20

The link was in my post above.

Trying to save money on these cheap interface is FOOLISH!!!

While the VeePeak interfaces are cheap, I have not heard of 1 DOA or problem with the hundreds of forum members buying these, with the exception of the VP11Plus, but this issue is being sorted out as I type this. The VeePeak folks have been very helpful in figuring out what is going on with the VP11Plus. Expect a solution hopefully this month. The VP11 Bluetooth and Wifi interfaces have been flawless.

Sometimes it is wise to listen to people with experience.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 03-06-2017 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 10:58 AM   #37
tritron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
$17, it works, you can have it in 2 days - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WPW6BAE..._vl_convert-20

The link was in my post above.

Trying to save money on these cheap interface is FOOLISH!!!

While the VeePeak interfaces are cheap, I have not heard of 1 DOA or problem with the hundreds of forum members buying these, with the exception of the VP11Plus, but this issue is being sorted out as I type this. The VeePeak folks have been very helpful in figuring out what is going on with the VP11Plus. Expect a solution hopefully this month. The VP11 Bluetooth and Wifi interfaces have been flawless.

Sometimes it is wise to listen to people with experience.
What good app for android can you recomend
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Old 03-06-2017, 11:05 AM   #38
jfoj
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Originally Posted by tritron View Post
What good app for android can you recomend
OBDFusion is available for both Android & iProducts. The Android version will run on the Kindle Fire as well.

$3.99 for Android, requires a BT interface - https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-Bluet...peak+bluetooth

So you are all in for $16 with Android

$9.99 for iProducts with a Wifi interface - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WPW6BAE...s=veepeak+wifi

So you are all in for $27 with iProducts

This will be the absolute best money you have ever spent for supporting any 1996 or newer car or light truck.

There are other tools and software you may need for more advanced support, but this is the tool you will always reach for first when the SES/CEL/MIL light comes on.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 03-08-2017, 04:35 AM   #39
sweetbeats
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I had already purchased OBDfusion...and earlier today I ordered the recommended OBDII interface. Should be here Thursday and I will have the ability to pull codes.

In the meantime I re-checked the DISA valve...pin is solidly in place, vacuum port is clear, valve actuates smoothly with proper spring-loaded resistance...the o-ring is shot (the original embedded silicon seal). I thought I had replaced that. Wrong. I think I was remembering the throttle body seal. So I need to get a DISA valve o-ring and dig out that original seal from the groove.

I also inspected the intake air boots. I can't find any failures there bending and twisting and looking under bright light (shining inside boots and looking for light escaping outside the boots). But one of them is starting to have cracks in the rubber so I'm going to replace them along with the the little dual port vacuum elbow.

I also pulled the ECU out and opened it up. All the connectors are clean, dry and corrosion-free, and the internal components on the PCB don't show any visible signed of failure, heat stress, etc.

So I'm going to get those parts coming, and maybe order a set of injector seals too.

Last edited by sweetbeats; 03-08-2017 at 04:36 AM.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:11 AM   #40
sweetbeats
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My Ride: 2003 325xi
Veepeak OBD2 interface arrived today...connected up with OBDfusion like clockwork.

Upper and lower intake boots, the little dual port vacuum elbow, and new injector seals should be here Monday or Tuesday next week, and a new DISA valve o-ring within a day of that.

Last edited by sweetbeats; 03-10-2017 at 12:12 AM.
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