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Old 05-17-2017, 09:29 AM   #1
UnBearable_Lo
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Bad fuel system, but running rich?

Misfire with low fuel level
Pre cat and post cat 02 running rich

While I have read other threads regarding the misfire code, nobody seems to agree as to wether it's the fuel pump or the filter, but on all of those threads I have seen that they are also running lean where as I am the opposite, running rich. Why is mine different from the others?

I have also noticed a misfire whenever cold starting, a lower idle RPM (used to sit at 750-800, now bounces between 600-700) and sometimes when I attempt to downshift I can hear a slight misfire , I'm not sure if this is also caused by the fuel system, or if it could be something else.



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Old 05-17-2017, 10:19 AM   #2
jfoj
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I doubt the engine is running Rich.

What is leading you to the idea the engine is running Rich??

Provide codes and descriptions of the codes and what tool or software you used to gather the codes. My expectation is you have a code that states something like "O2 Sensor Bank 1, Sensor 1 Deviation Too Rich" If so, this is NOT a RICH code, it is a Lean code.

Your description sounds like the engine is running Lean.

Most of what you need to solve your problem is outlined here: Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:34 PM   #3
UnBearable_Lo
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I used a Launch Creader V+ at a friends shop, and if I'm not mistaken the codes were:

P0313 Misfire with low fuel level (one active, one pending)
P1091 Pre-cat fuel trim too rich bank 1
P1093 Pre-cat fuel trim too rich bank 2
Plus 2 post cat codes for headers

Will double check codes with BMWLogger later tonight.

Also your thread was very helpful last year chasing down a vacuum leak, and rough idle issue.


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Old 05-17-2017, 01:03 PM   #4
jfoj
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Fuel Trim Too Rich means the DME has added as much fuel as it can and still not correct the LEAN condition. This is not a Rich condition.

Most likely a CCV hose air leak would be the first guess.

Freeze Frame and Fuel Trim data is needed.

If you have a smart phone or table, get an OBDII App and interface so you can read the codes along with Live/Realtime or Freeze Frame data then you will know exactly what is going on with the engine fuel management system.

The OBDFusion App and proper VeePeak interface from Amazon are less than $30 for both for iProducts, less than $20 for both for Android

OBDFusion for Android is is $3.99.

https://www.amazon.com/Veepeak-Bluet...peak+bluetooth

OBDFusion, for the iProducts it is $9.99.

For iProducts you NEED a Wifi adapter or LE Bluetooth adapter which are more expensive and VeePeak does not offer these yet. If you choose LE Bluetooth interface, it MUST be one that is listed as supported on the OBDFusion web site. I think the Carista interface is the most reliable.

iProducts requires Wifi - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WPW6BAE...ywords=veepeak
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 05-17-2017 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:27 PM   #5
UnBearable_Lo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
Fuel Trim Too Rich means the DME has added as much fuel as it can and still not correct the LEAN condition. This is not a Rich condition.

Most likely a CCV hose air leak would be the first guess.

Freeze Frame and Fuel Trim data is needed.


OBDFusion, for the iProducts it is $9.99.

For iProducts you NEED a Wifi adapter or LE Bluetooth adapter which are more expensive and VeePeak does not offer these yet. If you choose LE Bluetooth interface, it MUST be one that is listed as supported on the OBDFusion web site. I think the Carista interface is the most reliable.

iProducts requires Wifi - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WPW6BAE...ywords=veepeak

So if I'm understanding correctly, if it were reversed and the fuel trim was reading too lean, it would mean the engine is running in a rich condition and the DME can't compensate? Interesting.

I will read the trim levels when I get home, but I'm about 50% sure that the STFT/LTFT has one reading -9x.xx% while the other sticks around -07.xx%. Don't really remember which is which...

Im slightly confused at the links you posted for the scanner. You mentioned VeePeak doesn't offer the WiFI yet, but the link for Amazon says WiFI? Do I still need the wifi adapter?




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Old 05-17-2017, 03:40 PM   #6
jfoj
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Do not try to understand what is going on, there are often problems with language translation, point of reference and semantics. Is the glass half empty or half full type of problem.

Best to gather the Fuel Trim data and cross check this with the codes and see what is going on.

Positive (+) Fuel Trims mean the DME/ECU is adding fuel in an attempt to balance out the fuel mixture.

Negative (-) Fuel Trims mean the DME/ECU is removing fuel in an attempt to balance out the fuel mixture.

Sorry about the confusion, VeePeak does not offer a LE Bluetooth adapter yet and even if they did, it would have to specifically be programmed to work with OBDFusion. I guess the statement was not written as clearly as I could have been.

It probably should have been worded like this:

For iProducts you NEED a Wifi adapter or LE Bluetooth adapter which are more expensive and VeePeak does not offer a low cost LE Bluetooth Low Energy interface. If you choose LE Bluetooth interface, it MUST be one that is listed as supported on the OBDFusion web site. I think the Carista interface is the most reliable.
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 05-17-2017, 03:51 PM   #7
UnBearable_Lo
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Ahhh okay that makes sense, thanks jfoj.

Without a doubt I know the fuel trim levels are negative, not positive. I will update with live data in a few hours when I get a chance


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Old 05-17-2017, 04:12 PM   #8
jfoj
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And often if the Fuel Trims are Negative and taking away fuel, since most vehicles do not often run Rich, then this can actually cause a Lean condition if there are faulty inputs to the DME confusing things.

Most driveability problems are a result of Lean conditions.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:19 AM   #9
UnBearable_Lo
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Those are the codes pulled from BMWLogger, theyre pretty different than what was pulled with the Launch scanner. Fuel trim codes are gone, before I cleared it I also got a fuel sender code.

Waiting for the Amazon scanner to arrive for live data, for whatever reason BMWLogger can't/won't allow me to do it.


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Old 05-19-2017, 07:51 AM   #10
powerstroke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfoj View Post
I doubt the engine is running Rich.

What is leading you to the idea the engine is running Rich??

Provide codes and descriptions of the codes and what tool or software you used to gather the codes. My expectation is you have a code that states something like "O2 Sensor Bank 1, Sensor 1 Deviation Too Rich" If so, this is NOT a RICH code, it is a Lean code.

Your description sounds like the engine is running Lean.

Most of what you need to solve your problem is outlined here: Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616
Hai,I think if his plugs are black,high fuel consumption or black smoke at exhaust tail pipe,then he cn conclude that his running rich.

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Old 05-19-2017, 07:53 AM   #11
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On the other hand,can anyone help me wt the function of a vent valve on an m43 engine?

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Old 05-19-2017, 07:56 AM   #12
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My engine cant hold idle when cold but wen I disconnect MAF it holds,replaced MAF but no change,cn I suspect vent valve?at some point it was even running rich..

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Old 05-19-2017, 10:48 AM   #13
jfoj
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BMW trouble code translation from Bentley manual.

233 = P0420 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)
234 = P0430 Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)
235 = Pre Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich (Bank 1)
236 = Pre Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Rich (Bank 2)

But ALSO note, not sure if this is a type or a situation where often the codes may have multiple meanings. The 235 & 236 codes are also listed in the Bentley manual as:

235 = Pre Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Lean (Bank 1)
236 = Pre Catalyst Fuel Trim System Too Lean (Bank 2)

This is why it is simpler and easier to use a generic OBDII for most driveability problems and then compared the code description and also Fuel Trim values to see what is really going on.

As I have mentioned, most modern vehicles do not run Rich, they may have a Rich indicator, but this is often due to bad sensor data or sensors connected incorrectly.

The P0420/P0430 codes mean the catalyst may be compromised, these can be really nuisance codes and may be able to be sorted out without catalytic converter replacement, however, on many of these higher mileage cars the catalyst are failing.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:59 PM   #14
UnBearable_Lo
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Bad fuel system, but running rich?

The inefficient catalyst is because I have headers, is it safe to assume the air flow meter code is referring to the MAF, or could it be some type of leak around the intake


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Old 05-19-2017, 01:08 PM   #15
jfoj
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Yes, code 8 has two different definitions in the Bentley, again unclear if this is a typo or translation failure?

Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Low Input AND Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit High Input

Notice this is listed as a "Circuit" problem and not a "Sensor" problem. Sometimes a "Sensor" problem can appear as a "Circuit" problem, but usually a "Circuit" problem does not appear as a "Sensor" problem.

This error happened at 5152 RPM based on the info provided. My guess is possibly a broken wiring inside the MAF connector right at the female terminal crimp. Watch live data and wiggle and pull on the wiring and see what happens to the live data values.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:52 PM   #16
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Bad fuel system, but running rich?

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Attached some values, sorry for the delay, have been waiting to get my hands on the expensive scanner

My smooth running values of the cylinders (firing order)
1. .04-.24
5. .00-.28
3. .88-1.05
6. .78-.93
2. .00-.21
4. .00-.27

Idle air adaptation is 2.3%
Air mass reads 14.5-14.8 kg/h
Injection time 2.3-5.0ms

Idle lambda adaptation
Bank 1 and 2- 0.00ms
Partial load adaptation bank 1 and 2- 0.01%
Idle Adaptation deviation- 1.02

Last edited by UnBearable_Lo; 06-06-2017 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:38 PM   #17
jfoj
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You are really going about this all the wrong way.

You should not be using the "Expensive" scanner. But the "Expensive" scanner has an OBDII portion which would be a MUCH better choice for Driveability issues.

You also want to change the settings in the tool so the MAF reading will be displayed in g/s not kg/h.

I am telling you, $30 or less for OBDFusion and the wireless interface will run circles around what you are working with.

And yes, I have an Autel MaxiDAS and many other professional level SnapOn and other scan tools, I DO NOT use the vehicle specific portion of these tools for Driveability, I use the OBDII portion, but I generally do not even pull them out, I use OBDFusion.
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Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temp, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose temp switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299
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