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Old 08-03-2015, 09:34 PM   #81
M3Inline6
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Nope. Brendlin was known by the officer and known to have warrants
RAS/PC established
Nope, precedent held true, and the officer knowing the suspect was ruled insignificant and/or inconsequential...


Quote:
The Court noted its previous ruling in Maryland v. Wilson that permits officers to require the driver and any passengers to remain in the car, or to get out of the car, solely to preserve the officers' safety. Maryland v. Wilson, 519 U.S. 408 (1997). Justice Souter explained that Brendlin's act of remaining seated in the car may well have signaled his submission to police authority. Some courts have relied on Maryland v. Wilson to rule that officers may require the driver and passengers to remain inside the car. Rogala v. District of Columbia, 1616 F.3d 44 (D.C. Cir. 1998). Other courts extend the rule to require the driver and passengers to keep hands in plain sight during the traffic stop. United States v. Moorefield, 111 F.3d 10 (3rd Cir. 1997); King v. State, 696 So.2d 860 (Fla. App. 1997).

A majority of courts considering the issue, including nine federal circuit courts of appeal, had previously ruled that passengers were seized when a driver submits to a traffic stop. Only the supreme courts in California, Colorado and Washington had diverged from the majority view. Thus, the Brendlin decision does not dramatically alter the legal landscape for most officers, but it does provide a note of caution, and still leaves open several important questions about officers' interactions with passengers. The decision may not even help Bruce Brendlin. The Supreme Court sent the case back to California to decide whether Brendlin's status as a parole fugitive impacts his standing to challenge the admittedly-improper stop.

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Old 08-03-2015, 09:34 PM   #82
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Keep playing guys... Your posts don't hold water
They hold water under the law, and that's really what matters. Opinions don't!

Also...

Quote:
Some commentators wrongly suggest that officers cannot even ask passengers' names and can never request identification documents. One court relied on the Supreme Court decision in Muehler v. Mena to establish the bright line rule that an officer may ask a passenger for identifying information. United States v. Hernandez...

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Old 08-03-2015, 09:39 PM   #83
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Nothing you are copying and pasting is relevant here
You can play the officer safety game to briefly detain someone or order them out of a car.

Where is your justification to demand ID from a passenger without RAS or detain them indefinitely is the question.

I have posted quotes above. I don't know what more to tell you if the SCOTUS case information and decisions aren't enough for you....


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most courts rule that the request is voluntary and requires no reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. State v. Williams, 590 S.E.2d 151 (Ga. App. 2003); State v. Smith, 683 N.W.2d 542 (Iowa 2004); People v. Jackson, 39 P.3d 1174 (Colo. 2002). Other courts have allowed officers' requests for passenger identification based on the need to record witnesses' names, even on a traffic citation. State v. Jones, 5 P.3d 1012 (Kan. App. 2000), aff'd, 17 P.3d 359 (Kan. 2001); State v. Chagaris, 669 N.E.2d 92 (Ohio App. 1995); People v. Grant, 266 Cal.Rptr. 587 (Cal. App. 1990).

Your feelings on the matter don't change the power provided under the badge.

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Old 08-03-2015, 09:46 PM   #84
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Post the whole quote:



You are talking about "tricking" someone into providing ID (consent), not a legal justification to demand it

Speaking respectfully isn't tricking. It doesn't change the bottom line.

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Old 08-03-2015, 09:57 PM   #85
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Our polite debate here is not about passengers giving consent freely (tricked or not). It's about an officers right to demand ID from a passenger with no RAS.

Out of fairness, I read most of the cases you posted (still going).
None of them are applicable
A traffic stop is a detainment..........for everybody in the vehicle (..especially when explicitly stated by the officer; SCOTUS ruled this.........superseding and nullifying California's previous ruling that only the driver was detained), therefore an officer can request identification from EVERYBODY in the vehicle. Whether you choose to produce one or not is another story. Even if you legitimately don't have one, the officer is going to ask you to identify yourself. Lie........and you're going to jail. Tell the truth, and the information is obtained anyway. Fail to disclose, and you're likely going to jail (...or you'll be detained for prolonged periods of time). The officer will obtain the information one way or the other.

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Old 08-03-2015, 10:12 PM   #86
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Memphis shooting: Suspect in officer's slaying arrested...

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/03/us/mem...-traffic-stop/

glad they got him off the street. Piece of crap.
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Old 08-03-2015, 10:14 PM   #87
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You can't ask a passenger to identify themselves unless you have RAS. This isn't Nazi Germany. You stopped the driver , nobody else.

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Old 08-03-2015, 10:16 PM   #88
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You can't ask a passenger to identify themselves unless you have RAS. This isn't Nazi Germany. You stopped the driver , nobody else.

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Sure I can. I'll repeat.........a traffic stop is a detainment for all parties in the vehicles (...SCOTUS ruling), thus, identification can be requested from all parties. It doesn't mean that you have to provide it if you're the passenger, but that will only lead down the rabbit hole. The fact that it is a legal detainment changes the game. It's all based on the situation, and traffic stop interactions vary. Sorry that it doesn't fit your narrative. In most cases the officer won't even bother with a passenger.

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Old 08-03-2015, 10:40 PM   #89
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Interesting feedback. I'm really interested to see what happens with this case.

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Old 08-03-2015, 10:49 PM   #90
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You're reading it wrong IMHO. It would be helpful if you post the actual language and court interpretation you're referencing. A couple of the SCOTUS cases you posted actually strengthen the 4th amendment for passengers

A seizure or detainment is not synonymous with demanding passenger present ID.
Asking in a non-RAS situation is not demanding. I already provided a thorough explanation above about how the sequence will usually play out if there's a real issue during a traffic stop. Things will vary from state to state (..obviously), but it sounds really silly for somebody in my state to think that I can't ask them to identify themselves [as the passenger in a vehicle] during a detainment.

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Old 08-03-2015, 11:04 PM   #91
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So.... Back to the original video. Cop admitted that there was no RAS.
Do you still stand by your comment that the cop can demand ID or are you adjusting your stance to he can only request it?
Yes I do, and here's why.....


...PC 148.

I said this in post #78:

Quote:
An officer does have THE RIGHT to request identification. The citizen may choose not to PRODUCE identification, but being non-compliant during a detainment will ultimately get you arrested, especially if you provide false identification to a peace officer. She also didn't do anything wrong initially (...which is why he said, "Yet!", and warned her that she was edging herself closer toward the end of the spectrum that would result in her being taken into custody), but he quoted the PC violation - in case you conveniently disregarded that part of the video - that she would be charged with IF she didn't remove herself from the vehicle and comply. Being a passenger in the vehicle doesn't necessarily mean that she's free to go as she pleases.
Whether you interpret that as demanding (...despite me using the word "request") depends on how you choose to read my words. If she had just exited the vehicle and waited until the officer said that she was no longer being detained and was free to go, she would have never been taken into custody.

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Old 08-03-2015, 11:05 PM   #92
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Sure I can. I'll repeat.........a traffic stop is a detainment for all parties in the vehicles (...SCOTUS ruling), thus, identification can be requested from all parties. It doesn't mean that you have to provide it if you're the passenger, but that will only lead down the rabbit hole. The fact that it is a legal detainment changes the game. It's all based on the situation, and traffic stop interactions vary. Sorry that it doesn't fit your narrative. In most cases the officer won't even bother with a passenger.
OK my bad. You can ask all you want passenger is not required to ID themselves. There is no rabbit hole. Its a done deal. Kick rocks back to the cruiser.

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Old 08-03-2015, 11:14 PM   #93
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OK my bad. You can ask all you want passenger is not required to ID themselves. There is no rabbit hole. Its a done deal. Kick rocks back to the cruiser.

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Let me know how that works out for you.
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:03 AM   #94
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Let me know how that works out for you.
Probably a beat down by a crushed ego.

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Old 08-04-2015, 12:34 AM   #95
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Sure I can. I'll repeat.........a traffic stop is a detainment for all parties in the vehicles (...SCOTUS ruling), thus, identification can be requested from all parties. It doesn't mean that you have to provide it if you're the passenger, but that will only lead down the rabbit hole. The fact that it is a legal detainment changes the game. It's all based on the situation, and traffic stop interactions vary. Sorry that it doesn't fit your narrative. In most cases the officer won't even bother with a passenger.
Therein lies the rub.

If you don't have reasonable suspicion, you can request. And I can refuse.

If you automatically find my refusal suspicious, so you escalate to demanding my ID (down the rabbit hole) then I never really had a choice to begin with, did I?
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Old 08-04-2015, 12:58 AM   #96
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The Official "Good Cop" thread.

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Therein lies the rub.



If you don't have reasonable suspicion, you can request. And I can refuse.



If you automatically find my refusal suspicious, so you escalate to demanding my ID (down the rabbit hole) then I never really had a choice to begin with, did I?

That's not necessarily true. The "rabbit hole" comment was meant to allude to the progressive nature of the questioning and thought process(es) that would take place if you....
  1. State that you are absent any identification.
  2. Fail/refuse to provide your legal name or provide false identification.

You and I both know that rarely does anybody [outside of a minor] not have identification, and the refusal to provide information is suspicious and is usually a telltale sign that the individual may be hiding their identity for a reason (...usually in an attempt to skirt the law). You (...speaking generally) can argue rights and case law until you're blue in the face - which I don't mind because it's fun/mentally stimulating for me to debate this stuff with you guys, and considering that I don't know everything, I am still in a position to learn - but common sense and intuition has shown more often than not that innocent people don't generally approach situations the same way guilty/suspect people do. Being confrontational in an attempt to incite never works out well for any of the parties involved.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:09 AM   #97
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the refusal to provide information is suspicious and is usually a telltale sign that the individual may be hiding their identity for a reason
Lol wut

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Old 08-04-2015, 08:12 AM   #98
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Good luck with that

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop...ntify_statutes

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Old 08-04-2015, 08:15 AM   #99
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Cliff notes

Exercising your 4th and 5th amendment rights is suspicious and means you're a criminal to a cop
from what i gather , exercising any right , talking back , moving your hand breathing is suspicious and you're a criminal to a cop.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:54 AM   #100
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Lol wut

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