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Political Talk
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:00 PM   #21
Act of God
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right, I'll just take your word for it.
Reaed the text and the articles of confederation. It is discussed and explicitly stated. Government can't grant rights it does not first possess. Law 101 kid
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #22
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You should look up "abrogated"
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I agree with JonJon.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:24 PM   #23
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You should look up "abrogated"
Let me ask you this then, if the Constitution/BoR does not grant rights, then why did the states insist that they had rights that were beyond the Constitution and that the states would not ratify unless the federal congress recognized those rights and hence the subsequent creation of the BoR? Which, in my interpretation, granted and protected those rights.

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Old 08-11-2013, 04:32 PM   #24
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The constitution does not grant rights. There is no interpretation. You're wrong.
Ergo, it is the inalienable right of Congress to lay and collect taxes from income.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:34 PM   #25
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that could also be interpreted as since the states insisted that they had rights that were beyond the constitution that they felt were natural born, they wouldn't ratify unless congress protected these natural born rights
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:38 PM   #26
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that could also be interpreted as since the states insisted that they had rights that were beyond the constitution that they felt were natural born, they wouldn't ratify unless congress protected these natural born rights
I agree with you. I considered the same thing too.


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Old 08-11-2013, 05:40 PM   #27
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Reaed the text and the articles of confederation. It is discussed and explicitly stated. Government can't grant rights it does not first possess. Law 101 kid
Did they not teach you in Law 101 different theories of jurisprudence? That the Constitution is a complex document that tie together different theories and themes from history as such?

Let me ask you this question.

If the Constitution only protects rights, how can it protect what it does not grant?

Since I am not religious, nor do I believe that rights are unalienable (refer to my example of the Decl of Independence where if a life can be taken away, it therefore is not unalienable) I believe in a sense that rights cannot come from anything other than mankind, in the form of an individual, state, or government acting as an authoritative body. Kind of along the lines of Legal Realism and Positivism. Additionally, there is no mention of God or higher divine power in our Constitution. Therefore I think rights come from an authoritative body. In the case of our Constitution/BoR my interpretation is that they do grant rights and thereby protect them as well. Additionally, I recognize that its not an exhaustive list and our founding fathers differed to the States and Individuals for things not covered and left a clause in our Constitution to provide for amendments if needed.

This is just my interpretation. I'm not saying its absolute and/or 100% correct.

I'll concede that I could be wrong.

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Old 08-11-2013, 06:14 PM   #28
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so would you believe that the constitution grants you the right to freedom of expression or does it protect that right? do you believe that many of the rights outlined in the constitution are natural born?
The Constiution grants rights. Without it, it would be the strong getting what they want while the weak enduring what they must. The Constitution ensures every man is born equal with equal rights. Without it man would dominate man thus ensuring no one has freedom--the natural state of war. Did no one learn Hobbes in school?

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Old 08-11-2013, 06:15 PM   #29
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Ergo, it is the inalienable right of Congress to lay and collect taxes from income.
Stick to fake engineering, because you're a horrible fake lawyer
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:54 PM   #30
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Stick to fake engineering, because you're a horrible fake lawyer
Whereas you are just a horrible fake lawyer.

Congress under the 16th amd has the right lo lay and collect taxes. Either the constitution grants congress that right or it was always there. Which is it.

You are the fool making absolute pronouncements.


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Old 08-11-2013, 07:06 PM   #31
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Whereas you are just a horrible fake lawyer.

Congress under the 16th amd has the right lo lay and collect taxes. Either the constitution grants congress that right or it was always there. Which is it.

You are the fool making absolute pronouncements.


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You are arguing two different things, I guess they didn't teach you that at engineering law school
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:06 PM   #32
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You are arguing two different things, I guess they didn't teach you that at engineering law school
different but related in principle
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:30 PM   #33
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The Constiution grants rights. Without it, it would be the strong getting what they want while the weak enduring what they must. The Constitution ensures every man is born equal with equal rights.
so people aren't naturally born equal with equal rights?
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:33 PM   #34
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so people aren't naturally born equal with equal rights?
Here is the second part of my post that you left out:

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Without it man would dominate man thus ensuring no one has freedom--the natural state of war. Did no one learn Hobbes in school?
Read Hobbes and the natural state of man and figure out if man is born with equal rights. Man is equal in his power relative to others.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:35 PM   #35
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Here is the second part of my post that you left out:



Read Hobbes and the natural state of man and figure out if man is born with equal rights. Man is equal in his power relative to others.
I wasn't asking what a book said. I was asking what people believed. do you believe that people are naturally born with equal rights? I have no interest in reading the book. I am simply looking for an opinion.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:45 PM   #36
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I wasn't asking what a book said. I was asking what people believed. do you believe that people are naturally born equal? I have no interest in reading the book. I am simply looking for an opinion.
I think it depends on what you mean equal. In terms of rights?

What I'm getting at is in one context, no I don't think people are born equal. Some people are smarter than others. Some are physically stronger. Some are better at doing A, B, C than the other person.

It is my opinion that one of the roles of the government is to levy rights and laws as to protect people from themselves (such as an unfair advantage).

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Old 08-11-2013, 07:51 PM   #37
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I think it depends on what you mean equal. In terms of rights?

What I'm getting at is in one context, no I don't think people are born equal. Some people are smarter than others. Some are physically stronger. Some are better at doing A, B, C than the other person.

It is my opinion that one of the roles of the government is to levy rights and laws as to protect people from themselves (such as an unfair advantage).
yes, sorry, I meant equal rights. obviously people are naturally born with stronger skill sets than others.

I agree that a role of government is to keep it's people safe, but at what cost to it's citizen's rights? how much control is too much control?
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:53 PM   #38
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I wasn't asking what a book said. I was asking what people believed. do you believe that people are naturally born with equal rights? I have no interest in reading the book. I am simply looking for an opinion.
I think Badfast agrees with Hobbes and hence his opinion is in line with Hobbes' theories.
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:58 PM   #39
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I agree that a role of government is to keep it's people safe, but at what cost to it's citizen's rights? how much control is too much control?
Ah, and the million dollar question. What is the balance between too much and too little government? I don't have an answer for that, but what I can say is that our government can operate within the framework of our Constitution which is subject to amendment - if it ever is amended again.


As you know, people enter into a social contract with their government where, in order to get out of the "state of nature", some freedoms are lost in exchange for protection. How much freedom is given up is up for debate.

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Old 08-11-2013, 08:00 PM   #40
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Ah, and the million dollar question. What is the balance between too much and too little government? I don't have an answer for that, but what I can say is that our government can operate within the framework of our Constitution which is subject to amendment - if it ever is amended again.


As you know, people enter into a social contract with their government where, in order to get out of the "state of nature", some freedoms are lost in exchange for "protection". How much freedom is given up is up for debate.
definitely an arguable idea
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