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Old 08-13-2013, 11:21 AM   #21
MDydinanM
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Incrementalism: Harry Reid says Obamacare will lead to single payer

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
and common sense would tell you that universal health care would fail as well.
Oh that's funny. Other countries have universal healthcare or health care systems like it. Though, their taxes are higher and they devote most of their country's income to infrastructure, education, and health. Not the military or national security industrial complex. Imagine that.

I'm not so sure it would work in the US though because of our culture and national psyche where we are averse to anything deemed "socialist" and raising taxes. Plus our population is vastly larger than those in Europe and Puerto Rico.


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Old 08-13-2013, 11:43 AM   #22
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It just astounds me. The Obama cheerleaders will jump up and down and support Obamacare. They will back Reid, Hillary, and their supreme chancellor.. ensuring they say virtually nothing negative about them.
Why chancellor? Is that supposed to have a negative connotation?

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And then, when a comment like this is made, they will pretend that Reid must have been mistaken (even though his comments are about as blunt as they come).
Did I say that?

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When conservatives yell back proclaiming "this is precisely why we opposed this legislation", the libs will balk and pretend they somehow never could have seen this coming.
Why exactly? Because of what Harry Reid said?

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They will claim "it's not a big deal" and play other ignorance cards. All the while, they will continue to vote for those same individuals who promised Obamacare and will (ultimately) deliver a single payer system.
If only.

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EITHER support single payer systems and be honest about it OR blast Reid for pushing for something you do NOT support. Don't dilly daddle and fumble around claiming to support one and not the other but only if it.. but not if it... it's just asinine.
Can't I support both? I might like one better, but I'll take what I can get.

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So what is it "typical libs"? Do you support Reid and a single payer system? Do you disagree with him? If the former, do you feel as if the American people were deceived when they were promised "reform" but not an end to the health-insurance based system ("if you like your plan, keep your plan".. . who said that again?)
Obamacare was widely discussed during both elections and people voted accordingly. If someone proposes a single payer system tomorrow and the people vote for them, then clearly it's the will of the people. If they don't like it, then clearly the other side will win. You respect that, right?

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Oh yeah, and blast "idiots like Rush" for proclaiming early on that this was a trojan horse for single payer healthcare.
Rush is not an idiot. His listeners are.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:55 AM   #23
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Obamacare was widely discussed during both elections and people voted accordingly. If someone proposes a single payer system tomorrow and the people vote for them, then clearly it's the will of the people. If they don't like it, then clearly the other side will win. You respect that, right?

Rush is not an idiot. His listeners are.
The problem is that you cannot isolate Obamacare as the only issue that voters considered. So no, it is not clear that Obamacare is the will of the people.

And I define idiots as people who cannot accept, understand or acknowledge that other people have legitimate, fact-based reasons for opposing issues like Obamacare without resorting to such tactics as name calling. Welcome to Lair's club.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:59 AM   #24
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Rush is not an idiot. His listeners are.
No, no. Let's not kid ourselves. Rush is an idiot. Alex Jones as well.

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Old 08-13-2013, 12:04 PM   #25
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No, no. Let's not kid ourselves. Rush is an idiot. Alex Jones as well.
Displaying some finely-tuned debating skills, there bud!
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:10 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
Oh that's funny. Other countries have universal healthcare or health care systems like it. Though, their taxes are higher and they devote most of their country's income to infrastructure, education, and health. Not the military or national security industrial complex. Imagine that.

I'm not so sure it would work in the US though because of our culture and national psyche where we are averse to anything deemed "socialist" and raising taxes. Plus our population is vastly larger than those in Europe and Puerto Rico.
I don't think it would work, and a lot of those "other" countries don't have to spend as much on military/defense because they rely on US for it. If they had to fend for themselves a little more their systems might fail too.

Agreed on our culture/psyche as well. Over 75% of Americans are very happy with their current health care. Should we really eff them over to satisfy the relatively few that aren't? Isn't that called throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Also agreed on population size. This isn't cooking, you don't just multiply the recipe.
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:40 PM   #27
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Displaying some finely-tuned debating skills, there bud!
did I insult your idols or something?

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I don't think it would work, and a lot of those "other" countries don't have to spend as much on military/defense because they rely on US for it. If they had to fend for themselves a little more their systems might fail too.
That's a good dynamic I didn't think of. However, in the case of Europe, do they not have collective security under NATO? "Ideally" speaking of course.

Though, let's not kid ourselves, the US is the major contributor of NATO. But if you take the US out of the equation, I wonder how things would change.

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Agreed on our culture/psyche as well. Over 75% of Americans are very happy with their current health care. Should we really eff them over to satisfy the relatively few that aren't? Isn't that called throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Also agreed on population size. This isn't cooking, you don't just multiply the recipe.
Agreed. Just because it works somewhere else does not mean it's going to work here in the US. Different culture, value systems, government, history, demographics, population size, and all sorts of different "ingredients"

I guess time will tell... or won't if Obamacare is repealed.

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:23 PM   #28
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One could only hope we would spend less on defense.
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:31 PM   #29
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The problem is that you cannot isolate Obamacare as the only issue that voters considered. So no, it is not clear that Obamacare is the will of the people.
It was a significant part of the package?

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And I define idiots as people who cannot accept, understand or acknowledge that other people have legitimate, fact-based reasons for opposing issues like Obamacare without resorting to such tactics as name calling. Welcome to Lair's club.
Am I to assume you feel insulted because you are a Rush listener?

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Agreed on our culture/psyche as well. Over 75% of Americans are very happy with their current health care.
Link?

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Also agreed on population size. This isn't cooking, you don't just multiply the recipe.
How do you know?

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Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
Agreed. Just because it works somewhere else does not mean it's going to work here in the US. Different culture, value systems, government, history, demographics, population size, and all sorts of different "ingredients"
It might. It might not. In the end, America spends more for less. What's wrong with looking at examples that work and figuring out how to apply them here?
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:43 PM   #30
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One could only hope we would spend less on defense.
it creates, promotes, sustains jobs. It's a self licking ice cream cone
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:44 PM   #31
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It might. It might not. In the end, America spends more for less. What's wrong with looking at examples that work and figuring out how to apply them here?
totally with you on that. I'm not opposed to the idea of universal healthcare. I think it would be great that everyone will have one less thing to worry about. However, I do understand that it comes with a cost, whether it's raising taxes, killing the motivation and competition for doctors to be good, etc. It also assumes a "perfect society" where people won't abuse the system.

So like I said, time will tell.
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:55 PM   #32
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It was a significant part of the package?

...

Am I to assume you feel insulted because you are a Rush listener?

...

It might. It might not. In the end, America spends more for less. What's wrong with looking at examples that work and figuring out how to apply them here?
You said it was clear, now you are at significant part of the package which seems less clear. I guess I could ask you to define significant and to whom that applies, etc., but I know you understand my point.

I catch Rush on those rare days (1-2 per month) when I am driving during his broadcast. I am sure in your eyes that makes me a Rush listener and makes it easier for you to counter my points with irrelevant shots, so who am I to take away your low-hanging fruit? Let's save the real discussion about merits, etc., for the big boys.

As for what is wrong with looking at examples, you make it sound as if there is no cost to pursuing a path that ultimately proves disastrous. Unfortunately, that is the mentality of our elected representatives: Why not try something, anything, because at least I can say that I care, that I tried, and by the way I will be long gone by the time this mess unravels.

So, once again, it comes down to the fundamental debate over whether or not this new approach will work - in whatever way you define "work." I happen to think it will not work under any definition. I guess that makes me an idiot because you disagree.
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Old 08-13-2013, 01:55 PM   #33
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Link?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...insurance.html
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According to Gallup's data, 87% of people with private insurance and 82% of people on Medicare or Medicaid say that the quality of their health care is excellent or good. Similarly, 75% of those with private plans and 74% on government-run plans rate their insurance plan as excellent or good.
http://www.ahipcoverage.com/wp-conte...t-Coverage.pdf

Compares several polls on the same subject, all results similar
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Old 08-13-2013, 02:05 PM   #34
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That's great news. Public health plan subscribers are equally happy. Which means that we'll save money and we won't reduce the satisfaction:



When you look at how happy people are with what they pay for healthcare, the numbers are a bit lower:

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Old 08-13-2013, 02:16 PM   #35
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You said it was clear, now you are at significant part of the package which seems less clear. I guess I could ask you to define significant and to whom that applies, etc., but I know you understand my point.
Everyone talked about it all the time. Stop pretending.

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I catch Rush on those rare days (1-2 per month) when I am driving during his broadcast.
Oh, you catch him? Does your radio have a button or a dial?

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I am sure in your eyes that makes me a Rush listener and makes it easier for you to counter my points with irrelevant shots, so who am I to take away your low-hanging fruit? Let's save the real discussion about merits, etc., for the big boys.
Wha?

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As for what is wrong with looking at examples, you make it sound as if there is no cost to pursuing a path that ultimately proves disastrous. Unfortunately, that is the mentality of our elected representatives: Why not try something, anything, because at least I can say that I care, that I tried, and by the way I will be long gone by the time this mess unravels.
I disagree. I think most of them are afraid to do anything at all. I'm glad action was taken.

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So, once again, it comes down to the fundamental debate over whether or not this new approach will work - in whatever way you define "work." I happen to think it will not work under any definition. I guess that makes me an idiot because you disagree.
You're not an idiot if you disagree with me. If you nod in agreement every time Rush speaks, now that's another thing...
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Old 08-13-2013, 02:30 PM   #36
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That's great news. Public health plan subscribers are equally happy. Which means that we'll save money and we won't reduce the satisfaction:
If the vast majority of people are happy there is no reason to screw them over just to implement some giant clusterfck of a program made to accommodate the ones who aren't happy.

Would be easier to leave everyone alone and just expand medicaid coverage. At least you wouldn't be messing with what people perceive to be a good thing. Also, asking people if they are happy with what they pay for something is silly. If they are happy with what they got, they're happy. Of course people would like to pay less, that applies to everything.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:06 PM   #37
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it creates, promotes, sustains jobs. It's a self licking ice cream cone
But its lifeline are the American taxpayers and corporations.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #38
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If the vast majority of people are happy there is no reason to screw them over just to implement some giant clusterfck of a program made to accommodate the ones who aren't happy.
It's unsustainable. Costs are spiraling out of control and meanwhile a large segment of the population is suffering.

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Would be easier to leave everyone alone and just expand medicaid coverage. At least you wouldn't be messing with what people perceive to be a good thing.
Key point.

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Also, asking people if they are happy with what they pay for something is silly. If they are happy with what they got, they're happy. Of course people would like to pay less, that applies to everything.
Following your logic, the answer to that question should have been 0%.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:20 PM   #39
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But its lifeline are the American taxpayers and corporations.
dirty little secret

Why else do you think politicians do not want to cut capital defense assets and programs, like the JSF program, etc. It would harm their districts/constituents and as a result, they would likely not be re-elected.

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Old 08-13-2013, 03:51 PM   #40
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It's unsustainable. Costs are spiraling out of control and meanwhile a large segment of the population is suffering.
There are plenty of things that are unsustainable that you support, like social security. Now you're concerned with unsustainable? ha!

A large portion of the population is not suffering, stop with the emotional appeals.
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