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Old 08-20-2013, 08:57 AM   #21
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And what of the lying? If the continued espionage on Americans doesn't upset you, what of the continued lying to the American people? Obama has spoken specifically in regard to this issue for the last year and has lied at every turn. Beyond that, the administration and law enforcement have been instructed and trained on how to properly lie about NSA involvement.
Will you elect a President that won't stand for this? Romney?

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How can people look the other way on this? The Patriot Act gave the government the ability to wire tap the phones of those individuals with frequent contact with individuals in contentious parts of the world. This involves ALL documentation being swept.
The Patriot Act pretty much allowed them everything. They could keep track of what library books you're checking out. You're just getting upset NOW?

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If you, or a friend, or even a friend of a friend have had ANY communication with ANYONE in a foreign country (say for example a chat thread on E46fanatics with someone outside US borders), EVERY conversation you've had is now fair game to be recorded, filtered, mined, and used against you in a court of law. Beyond that, there is a specific organization within our government whose sole job is to then "recreate" how the information was obtained so they can continue to lie about the existence of these filters/nets/scans. That is NOT equatable to the Patriot Act.
Oh, please.



It's been wrong. It IS wrong. It will continue to BE wrong.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:03 AM   #22
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Will you elect a President that won't stand for this? Romney?
I voted for Ron Paul, and Gary Johnson. That's a heck of a lot more than you did.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:06 AM   #23
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Re: NSA, DEA, IRS Lie About Fact That Americans Are Routinely Spied On By Our Governm

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It is the "mock outrage" that is comical.

Did people really not know/understand that this is what the NSA does? Did they really think email on the net was secure?

Where was the outrage about the NSA starting their intrusion into "snail mail" 40 years ago? And where has the outrage been for the last 40 years?


People are not outraged that this is going on, they are outraged because they 'offically' found out about it.
So it's OK that their internal audit showed thousands of policy violations, and that they've routinely lied to Congress. It's OK because that's how it's always been anyways. Who cares that their oversight consists of themselves only? I'm sure the honor system is keeping them in line.

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Old 08-20-2013, 09:07 AM   #24
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Whe Patriot Act pretty much allowed them everything. They could keep track of what library books you're checking out. You're just getting upset NOW?
Two things :

1. This is a PUBLIC library. Of course the government would have access to what book you check out.

2. The Patriot Act applied to those potentially involved in terrorism whether domestic or abroad. It was limited to individuals matching specific profiles and, even then, required law enforcement to abide by privacy regulations.

3. The Patriot Act was RESIGNED by OBAMA!

Stop pointing fingers at past shortcomings as a defense for current failures. Does this upset you? No? If not, why? And, if this doesn't bother you, why would the Patriot Act, aimed at terrorist, upset you in the least?

If the Patriot Act did upset you by allowing law enforcement to wire tap those likely involved in terrorist activities, how could this possibly NOT upset you?

You can't have it both ways depending upon which political power is at the helm.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:08 AM   #25
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I voted for Ron Paul, and Gary Johnson. That's a heck of a lot more than you did.
I'd have voted for Ralph Nader.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:12 AM   #26
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Two things :

1. This is a PUBLIC library. Of course the government would have access to what book you check out.
So if I go see a free clinic the government should know my medical history?

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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
2. The Patriot Act applied to those potentially involved in terrorism whether domestic or abroad. It was limited to individuals matching specific profiles and, even then, required law enforcement to abide by privacy regulations.
It was more or less carte blanche.

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3. The Patriot Act was RESIGNED by OBAMA!
I know. I was very disappointed.

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Stop pointing fingers at past shortcomings as a defense for current failures. Does this upset you? No? If not, why? And, if this doesn't bother you, why would the Patriot Act, aimed at terrorist, upset you in the least?
If the Patriot Act is only aimed at terrorists, and you know where they are so you can aim it at them, why not just go get them?

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If the Patriot Act did upset you by allowing law enforcement to wire tap those likely involved in terrorist activities, how could this possibly NOT upset you?
Who's to say BOTH don't upset me? I guess I just got it out of my system last time.

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You can't have it both ways depending upon which political power is at the helm.
You are absolutely right, there.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:23 AM   #27
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And what of the lying? If the continued espionage on Americans doesn't upset you, what of the continued lying to the American people? Obama has spoken specifically in regard to this issue for the last year and has lied at every turn. Beyond that, the administration and law enforcement have been instructed and trained on how to properly lie about NSA involvement.

How can people look the other way on this? The Patriot Act gave the government the ability to wire tap the phones of those individuals with frequent contact with individuals in contentious parts of the world. This involves ALL documentation being swept. If you, or a friend, or even a friend of a friend have had ANY communication with ANYONE in a foreign country (say for example a chat thread on E46fanatics with someone outside US borders), EVERY conversation you've had is now fair game to be recorded, filtered, mined, and used against you in a court of law. Beyond that, there is a specific organization within our government whose sole job is to then "recreate" how the information was obtained so they can continue to lie about the existence of these filters/nets/scans. That is NOT equatable to the Patriot Act.
And do you think all of this is something new as of the past 5 years?

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You can't have it both ways depending upon which political power is at the helm.
Quoted for extreme irony
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:24 AM   #28
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I voted for Ron Paul, and Gary Johnson. That's a heck of a lot more than you did.
I think you voted for them just so you can talk about it in every other post.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:35 AM   #29
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I'd have voted for Ralph Nader.
Except you didn't, and he was running. You're all talk.
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:35 AM   #30
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I think you voted for them just so you can talk about it in every other post.
nahh
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Old 08-20-2013, 10:50 AM   #31
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Except you didn't, and he was running. You're all talk.
Tough talk.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 2000_328CI View Post
And what of the lying? If the continued espionage on Americans doesn't upset you, what of the continued lying to the American people? Obama has spoken specifically in regard to this issue for the last year and has lied at every turn. Beyond that, the administration and law enforcement have been instructed and trained on how to properly lie about NSA involvement.
And what of every previous administration back to Nixon. Are lies of omission somehow less reprehensible?
It is not a justification of the current administration. But, they are no worse on this topic than the previous ones either.

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How can people look the other way on this? The Patriot Act gave the government the ability to wire tap the phones of those individuals with frequent contact with individuals in contentious parts of the world. This involves ALL documentation being swept. If you, or a friend, or even a friend of a friend have had ANY communication with ANYONE in a foreign country (say for example a chat thread on E46fanatics with someone outside US borders), EVERY conversation you've had is now fair game to be recorded, filtered, mined, and used against you in a court of law. Beyond that, there is a specific organization within our government whose sole job is to then "recreate" how the information was obtained so they can continue to lie about the existence of these filters/nets/scans. That is NOT equatable to the Patriot Act.
Who is "looking the other way"? No one is saying they "should" be doing this. Only that it is not a surprise that they are. The American people did know about it but chose to bury their collective heads in the sand about it.

In all seriousness, did you honestly think email was secure?
Especially non PGP type encrypted email. It was unencrypted text going over a wire through multiple devices completely out of your control. It was like sending a postcard. Anybody how was on the path could easily see the contents.

If you hand a postcard to somebody who hands it to somebody else who hands it to somebody else who hands it to somebody else etc etc etc. Do you even have the assumption of privacy?
If the answer is no (which is the only rational answer) that ability to acquire applies to the government as well as a citizen.

The same applies to encrypted transmission. Is encryption 100% secure? Of course not. The purpose of encryption is to make it more difficult or time consuming to decrypt than the value of the information. The NSA has or has had, some of the bright cryptographic minds in the world working for them. Their job was to work on encryption and decryption.

Is it a coincidence that the US government refused to allow encryption tech greater than 56 bit to be generally exported until the very late 90's. Why would they stop this if it wasn't because the government could not decrypt 128 bit (the new standard at that time) in a reasonable manner given the large computing infrastructure the NSA possessed at the time?

There have been people who have voiced concern about this in different ways at different times. EFF with the 56 bit DES challenge back in the 90's. To show the world and try to pressure the govt publicly and privately that slowing encryption technology was a bad idea. The results to the press of "if a group of computer nerds can crack a 56 bit DES key over a couple of days using spare computing cycles, how fast do you think people like the NSA can do it?" One can express concern without having to shout. Is there anybody on this forum who worked on that project? I know of at least one

So before you or others go about condemning people for "not giving a frack", perhaps you should get your history and facts straight. Of course that would interfere with this "mock outrage", now wouldn't it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:15 AM   #33
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So it's OK that their internal audit showed thousands of policy violations, and that they've routinely lied to Congress. It's OK because that's how it's always been anyways. Who cares that their oversight consists of themselves only? I'm sure the honor system is keeping them in line.

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Who ever said it was OK. Merely that it has existed for four decades and was well known. Only now folks are getting outraged by this. Why is that?
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:15 AM   #34
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Re: NSA, DEA, IRS Lie About Fact That Americans Are Routinely Spied On By Our Governm

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Old 08-20-2013, 11:16 AM   #35
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Two things :

1. This is a PUBLIC library. Of course the government would have access to what book you check out.
What makes you think the internet is private?
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:25 AM   #36
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The entire NSA ordeal has made me lose what little respect I had left for politicians. Obama has let his country down.
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Old 08-20-2013, 11:26 AM   #37
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Who ever said it was OK. Merely that it has existed for four decades and was well known. Only now folks are getting outraged by this. Why is that?
because black president, am I right?
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:02 PM   #38
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And what of the lying? If the continued espionage on Americans doesn't upset you, what of the continued lying to the American people? Obama has spoken specifically in regard to this issue for the last year and has lied at every turn. Beyond that, the administration and law enforcement have been instructed and trained on how to properly lie about NSA involvement.

How can people look the other way on this? The Patriot Act gave the government the ability to wire tap the phones of those individuals with frequent contact with individuals in contentious parts of the world. This involves ALL documentation being swept. If you, or a friend, or even a friend of a friend have had ANY communication with ANYONE in a foreign country (say for example a chat thread on E46fanatics with someone outside US borders), EVERY conversation you've had is now fair game to be recorded, filtered, mined, and used against you in a court of law. Beyond that, there is a specific organization within our government whose sole job is to then "recreate" how the information was obtained so they can continue to lie about the existence of these filters/nets/scans. That is NOT equatable to the Patriot Act.
1. If a conservative was in charge, we'd be in the same place. Why you are assigning this to Obama is beyond me.

2. You and most of the people on this forum are making this out to be more than it is. It's a means to collect and query data. They aren't just arbitrarily looking at your emails. You need a warrant to do that.

3. This is a good thing and all passes the litmus test of constitutional and moral. Because you don't understand the architecture of what was put in place, doesn't mean its an assault on your rights.Also the amount of interaction between agencies is a world of improvement.

4. This is another example of media spin. They spin this to be more than it is to drum up readership. Look at the facts and trends instead of the sensationalism of it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:52 PM   #39
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1. If a conservative was in charge, we'd be in the same place. Why you are assigning this to Obama is beyond me.

2. You and most of the people on this forum are making this out to be more than it is. It's a means to collect and query data. They aren't just arbitrarily looking at your emails. You need a warrant to do that.

3. This is a good thing and all passes the litmus test of constitutional and moral. Because you don't understand the architecture of what was put in place, doesn't mean its an assault on your rights.Also the amount of interaction between agencies is a world of improvement.

4. This is another example of media spin. They spin this to be more than it is to drum up readership. Look at the facts and trends instead of the sensationalism of it.
What about the CIA spying on private American citizens like Noam Chomsky?
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:06 PM   #40
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because black president, am I right?
Because not enough liberal arts education in public schools and universities.
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