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Old 08-21-2013, 02:54 PM   #21
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It doesn't. I guess one could say that lately all it has amounted to is poking a bee's nest with a stick. Maybe someone should think of a more intelligent approach?
I agree. Any ideas? I don't have any.
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Furthermore, I think the US should get heavily involved in Africa. In the coming decades, Africa might become both an area of production and consumption. As an American, I'd like to think they'd embrace American ideas and goods more than Chinese or British ones.
It would be nice to see the US and other first-world countries work in developing countries in such a way that we weren't perceived as just coming in to rape the landscape and take all the riches home for ourselves. The bitter taste of colonialism is still fresh in the mouths of most Africans.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:01 PM   #22
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I agree. Any ideas? I don't have any.
I don't know. I'm sure smarter people than I are in responsible positions, but I would think that an appearance of giving a **** would help. Not even a physical presence, but a mindful one. Presence in talks and motivation for improvement. It's better than having them only see USA on tear gas bombs et al.
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It would be nice to see the US and other first-world countries work in developing countries in such a way that we weren't perceived as just coming in to rape the landscape and take all the riches home for ourselves. The bitter taste of colonialism is still fresh in the mouths of most Africans.
And the US has an advantage there. It doesn't have to associate with the past sins of the Europeans. Although, neither do the Chinese.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:04 PM   #23
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After reading your latest reply I've concluded that ONE of us MUST be drunk. Either it's you, or I've discovered an effortless, cost free, and totally passive method to get inebriated.
Hopefully you're enjoying a few select beverages yourself?

In all seriousness. I often reflect internally and delve for my own understanding and interpretation of matters such as this. I believe a lot of it has to do with personality, self-awareness, and the backgrounds from whence we emerged. A lot of my decison-making comes down to doing the right and most times, logical thing no matter what one's self interests may be.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:04 PM   #24
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Go home bimmerfan, you're drunk.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:05 PM   #25
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Go home bimmerfan, you're drunk.
I can't participate?

VD brings up some good points that I could align with. I'll add more to it in a bit.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:38 PM   #26
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The last time we helped the underdog we ended up in a war, oh wait we're still in that war. Not to mention we send millions of dollars and weapons systems to Egypt and all they manage to do is riot and kill each other in the streets. If you think the Saudis are really on our side, ha! They're on the side that keeps the money and prosperity of their nation firmly in their grasp. I hate to generalize but those people don't care about what America is selling, they just want a fighting chance at killing the guy who disagrees with them.

Yes, you're correct the Germans aren't carrying Europe on its shoulders because they're kind, they're doing it because in a way they don't have a choice. They live within their means and pay a helluva lot of taxes to provide for their nation's well being, kinda like Americans. I don't have a problem with paying taxes but I do have a problem paying taxes to support people who don't give a damn and are beyond ass backwards. Moreover I care if some guys sitting up in their ivory tower think that I need to pack up and go fight in some god forsaken cesspool. Especially when the alternative to their despot consist of proclaimed Islamic fundamentalist working with confirmed terrorist organizations. Fighting for a people's freedom sure, fighting their religion fumed wars, never.

If it were all about people, we would be intervening in a lot places that aren't in the ME, but its not. I will say that sometimes we do but it's only when they're people like us, whatever that means.
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:53 PM   #27
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Maybe just as an experiment we don't get involved in this?
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:56 PM   #28
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Are we certain is was Syria's government?
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:05 PM   #29
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Are we certain is was Syria's government?
Reports are still varied on what actually occurred, so I don't think they know who did what, and when/why/etc.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:53 PM   #30
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Varied from whom? I doubt the kremlin will ever allow any of its observers to admit anything so that leaves freelancers and the western nations. If what Reuters reported is accurate, i.e. the clinics were telling the truth, then that doesn't leave much room for anything else. Unless you think the rebels did it, which I could see, or you're thinking a rogue military faction perpetrated the attack?

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Old 08-21-2013, 05:14 PM   #31
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The last time we helped the underdog we ended up in a war, oh wait we're still in that war. Not to mention we send millions of dollars and weapons systems to Egypt and all they manage to do is riot and kill each other in the streets. If you think the Saudis are really on our side, ha! They're on the side that keeps the money and prosperity of their nation firmly in their grasp. I hate to generalize but those people don't care about what America is selling, they just want a fighting chance at killing the guy who disagrees with them.

Yes, you're correct the Germans aren't carrying Europe on its shoulders because they're kind, they're doing it because in a way they don't have a choice. They live within their means and pay a helluva lot of taxes to provide for their nation's well being, kinda like Americans. I don't have a problem with paying taxes but I do have a problem paying taxes to support people who don't give a damn and are beyond ass backwards. Moreover I care if some guys sitting up in their ivory tower think that I need to pack up and go fight in some god forsaken cesspool. Especially when the alternative to their despot consist of proclaimed Islamic fundamentalist working with confirmed terrorist organizations. Fighting for a people's freedom sure, fighting their religion fumed wars, never.

If it were all about people, we would be intervening in a lot places that aren't in the ME, but its not. I will say that sometimes we do but it's only when they're people like us, whatever that means.
I think this highlights what VD stated. Outside of the world wars, the US has intervened on the premis of "how will we reap benefit?" rather than just taking a step back, analyzing the situation, and determining whether or not it's the right move with regards to the ethics of human life. I'm also under the impression that no matter what the size of the conflict, the world will always look to the US as the watchdog and referee in calling the shots.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:32 PM   #32
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:50 PM   #33
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The US should look to contain the situation to Syria. We have witnessed it spread out which could have a larger destabilizing effect. Also, quickly determine who used the chemical weapons. Let's hope it was the Syrian government. If it was the FSA that is an indicator that the Syrian military has lost control over its weapon stockpiles. With AQ alliances being the most effective and strongest resistance force in Syria the US would have big problems if those weapons were secured by AQ or its affiliates.

This civil war will be drawn out. It is just as much of a proxy war among state and non-state actors. I am unsure if US intervention will do anything except worsen the situation. Not to mention having US troops killed with US weapons wouldn't go over so well.
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:55 PM   #34
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The US should look to contain the situation to Syria. We have witnessed it spread out which could have a larger destabilizing effect. Also, quickly determine who used the chemical weapons. Let's hope it was the Syrian government. If it was the FSA that is an indicator that the Syrian military has lost control over its weapon stockpiles. With AQ alliances being the most effective and strongest resistance force in Syria the US would have big problems if those weapons were secured by AQ or its affiliates.

This civil war will be drawn out. It is just as much of a proxy war among state and non-state actors. I am unsure if US intervention will do anything except worsen the situation. Not to mention having US troops killed with US weapons wouldn't go over so well.
Cliffs: US should not intervene correct? 'busa may still be alone in his opinion.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:04 PM   #35
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Cliffs: US should not intervene correct? 'busa may still be alone in his opinion.
At the current moment I do not think the US should intervene. If it is proven that the FSA has obtained and is using chemical weapons I think an intervention case gains traction. The level of intervention, I don't know--many factors to consider. As I mentioned AQ is the most effective resistance force in Syria. What would stop them from smuggling chemical weapons out of Syria? Of course my line of thinking could be different from the administrations.

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Old 08-21-2013, 08:23 PM   #36
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I should have clarified that I meant lately. Perhaps that's part of the problem. Back when the US began messing around in the ME they dealt with and propped up people who were basically dictators. That kind of stuff doesn't seem to fly so well anymore.
We used to do that because we'd get behind anyone that wasn't siding with the USSR.

A lot of the anti-Americanism in the ME can ultimately be traced back to the US/British creation and support of Israel.

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The last time we helped the underdog we ended up in a war, oh wait we're still in that war. Not to mention we send millions of dollars and weapons systems to Egypt and all they manage to do is riot and kill each other in the streets. If you think the Saudis are really on our side, ha! They're on the side that keeps the money and prosperity of their nation firmly in their grasp. I hate to generalize but those people don't care about what America is selling, they just want a fighting chance at killing the guy who disagrees with them.

Yes, you're correct the Germans aren't carrying Europe on its shoulders because they're kind, they're doing it because in a way they don't have a choice. They live within their means and pay a helluva lot of taxes to provide for their nation's well being, kinda like Americans. I don't have a problem with paying taxes but I do have a problem paying taxes to support people who don't give a damn and are beyond ass backwards. Moreover I care if some guys sitting up in their ivory tower think that I need to pack up and go fight in some god forsaken cesspool. Especially when the alternative to their despot consist of proclaimed Islamic fundamentalist working with confirmed terrorist organizations. Fighting for a people's freedom sure, fighting their religion fumed wars, never.

If it were all about people, we would be intervening in a lot places that aren't in the ME, but its not. I will say that sometimes we do but it's only when they're people like us, whatever that means.
US history is replete with instances of our country taking whatever side keeps the money and prosperity of our nation firmly in our grasp.

We've also blindly supported any person or group that's democracy/capitalism oriented, just as the Soviets supported any person or group that was socialism/communism oriented.

Everyone has an agenda. Some of them are noble and selfless. Some of them are opportunistic and selfish. Sometimes they're both, sometimes they're neither.

The one thing that's certain about Syria is that it's a friggin mess.

Before we go jumping into that particular meat grinder, though, we need to think about the resources it would consume ($s, man-hours, lives) and consider the mid- and long-term results. We then need to decide if intervention there is the best use of those resources. If we're going to spend $1 billion and deploy 5,000 troops and X ships and in Syria to save Y lives, but those same resources could be deployed somewhere else (famine, disaster relief, health/human services development) and save 1.5 x Y lives, then rolling into Syria makes no sense.

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Old 08-21-2013, 08:24 PM   #37
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US intervention should only be necessary if AQ backed Islamic fundamentalist threaten to take over the government. AQ exists for one reason and that's to push its agenda by killing innocent people. If they are allowed to take over Syria then why the hell are we still in Afghanistan? However I'm very reluctant to have "boots on the ground" as an option to remedy the problem. Even so if the AQ managed to topple the government it would become an international problem quickly. Iran and Israel wouldn't be too happy about having a rogue state in their backyard and no western nation, including Russia, would like having a terrorist organization running a former state with a sizable weapons cache. The only way to protect yourself and others from a rabid animal is to put it down.
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:26 PM   #38
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Where did Syria get the gas from?
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Old 08-21-2013, 08:37 PM   #39
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:01 PM   #40
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Where did Syria get the gas from?
Syria has a maintained a chem weapon program dating back to the 1970s.
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