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Old 08-21-2013, 09:32 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
Smuggled out of Iraq before the US invasion. LOL
I think you're right. Hussein killed like 300,000 of his own people, then the USA killed like 150,000 Iragi civilians in the first 3 years trying to help. Weapons of Mass Destruction include Chemical/Biological Weapons.

Is 1,300 enough for us to get involved? Probably not
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:36 PM   #42
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The situation in Syria is far more complex than any country can hope to effectively influence.

Alawites (Assad's lot), allied to Shias in Iran & Hezbollah (Lebanon) - shored up by Russian arms
FSA - (mainly) secular Sunni's looking to get a fairer country for the Sunni majority - proposed military support from Western countries
AQ/Al-Nusra, etc - fundamentalist Islamists getting weapons from Sunni countries including Saudi Arabia & Qatar
Syrian Kurds - 10% of Syrians and semi autonomous since start of conflict.

Here's where it gets ****ed up.

Assad fighting FSA & AQ & trying to equip Hezbollah (leading to Israeli air strikes inside Syria)
FSA fighting Assad & AQ
Kurds fighting AQ and being threatened by Turkey (who have their own war with Turkish Kurds in the PKK)

More than 100,000 dead and millions displaced and the word is getting bent out of shape over 1000 gas victims? Horrible way to die but AQ are killing boys joking about the prophet, AQ also doing their usual beheadings and all sides are going hell for leather in their headlong efforts towards genocide. Five minutes on Liveleak will show you how ****ed up the place is.

This has got WW3 written all over it imvho. Western powers should stay the **** out of Syria.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:58 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Goughie View Post
The situation in Syria is far more complex than any country can hope to effectively influence.

Alawites (Assad's lot), allied to Shias in Iran & Hezbollah (Lebanon) - shored up by Russian arms
FSA - (mainly) secular Sunni's looking to get a fairer country for the Sunni majority - proposed military support from Western countries
AQ/Al-Nusra, etc - fundamentalist Islamists getting weapons from Sunni countries including Saudi Arabia & Qatar
Syrian Kurds - 10% of Syrians and semi autonomous since start of conflict.

Here's where it gets ****ed up.

Assad fighting FSA & AQ & trying to equip Hezbollah (leading to Israeli air strikes inside Syria)
FSA fighting Assad & AQ
Kurds fighting AQ and being threatened by Turkey (who have their own war with Turkish Kurds in the PKK)

More than 100,000 dead and millions displaced and the word is getting bent out of shape over 1000 gas victims? Horrible way to die but AQ are killing boys joking about the prophet, AQ also doing their usual beheadings and all sides are going hell for leather in their headlong efforts towards genocide. Five minutes on Liveleak will show you how ****ed up the place is.

This has got WW3 written all over it imvho. Western powers should stay the **** out of Syria.
This^ minus the ww3 bit. liveleak is great for the nitty gritty. I'm not big on the idea of leaving Israel on their own though. The russkies don't like AQ either especially since their not far off from the Chechen Taliban that takes to beheading teen conscripts in cold blood, so I doubt any threat from world powers if there's a US only intervention, they might even join a UN resolution to intervene, while the Chinese will likely abstain. I wonder how long till the Chinese realize that this scum will be knocking at their door sooner or later? I can't flicking stand AQ,Taliban, Muslim brotherhood, Hamas, the lot of them.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:06 PM   #44
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I can't flicking stand AQ,Taliban, Muslim brotherhood, Hamas, the lot of them.
And yet the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas were both elected in what EU observers declared were free and fair elections. The former were ousted in a coup and the latter branded a terrorist organisation by the world. It seems as though the world simply wont accept political Islam. What's left for them but to fight?
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:21 AM   #45
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And yet the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas were both elected in what EU observers declared were free and fair elections. The former were ousted in a coup and the latter branded a terrorist organisation by the world. It seems as though the world simply wont accept political Islam. What's left for them but to fight?
And Egypt can't have a democracy without the Muslim Brotherhood.

All they have left to do is fight. Ousting Morsi sent a message to all Islamists. Their legitimacy will not be accepted. The Islamist can look at the MB or at the Afghani Taliban. One group spent decades trying to obtain political legitimacy. The MB finally gained it through free elections only to be ousted. The other sought legitimacy through violence and now has a place at the negotiating table regarding Afghanistan's future.
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:16 AM   #46
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US intervention should only be necessary if AQ backed Islamic fundamentalist threaten to take over the government.
Should someone be allowed to intervene in the US elections if a Christian fundamentalist was likely to win the presidency?

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The only way to protect yourself and others from a rabid animal is to put it down.
That's probably not unlike what the terrorists are thinking, too.

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More than 100,000 dead and millions displaced and the word is getting bent out of shape over 1000 gas victims? Horrible way to die but AQ are killing boys joking about the prophet, AQ also doing their usual beheadings and all sides are going hell for leather in their headlong efforts towards genocide. Five minutes on Liveleak will show you how ****ed up the place is.

This has got WW3 written all over it imvho. Western powers should stay the **** out of Syria.
Maybe so. Even if they were to stay out, that doesn't mean that they should wash their hands off the area. The Western powers are still immensely influential. At some point, doing absolutely nothing is akin to complicity. Also, do you think that doing nothing will isolate us from the backlash? It's like closing your eyes and thinking that others can't see you.

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And yet the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas were both elected in what EU observers declared were free and fair elections. The former were ousted in a coup and the latter branded a terrorist organisation by the world. It seems as though the world simply wont accept political Islam. What's left for them but to fight?
Good point. It must suck. "Oh, hey, you should try democracy! It's awesome! You can pick any government you like! ... Er... NOT THAT ONE! Any other than that... Err... Or that one! How about this one? WE like it!"
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Old 08-22-2013, 07:19 AM   #47
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Opposition says as many as 1,300 killed in gas attack near Damascus

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And Egypt can't have a democracy without the Muslim Brotherhood.

All they have left to do is fight. Ousting Morsi sent a message to all Islamists. Their legitimacy will not be accepted. The Islamist can look at the MB or at the Afghani Taliban. One group spent decades trying to obtain political legitimacy. The MB finally gained it through free elections only to be ousted. The other sought legitimacy through violence and now has a place at the negotiating table regarding Afghanistan's future.
I think one of two things will happen with the Muslim Brotherhood, or a combination of both.

First is that if history is any indication of the future, they will become an underground and subversive organization again as what happened under President Nasser, Sadat, and Mubarak. It seems it's deja vu all over again for the Brotherhood. Every time they try and assert themselves and try and become a legitimate political organization, the government cracks down - specifically the military and secularist opposition.

Second, we may also see another period of violence by the Brotherhood akin to what occurred during their founding by Hassan al Bana when they wanted to remove the British from Egypt or when they lost to Israel over the Palestinian issue and had revolted against King Farouk and his government. Another example is when they tried to assassinate Nasser by the more extreme members of the organization allegedly orchestrated by Sayyd Qutb - one of the founders of violent Islam in his manifesto "Signposts on the Road"




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Old 08-22-2013, 07:41 AM   #48
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I think one of two things will happen with the Muslim Brotherhood, or a combination of both.

First is that if history is any indication of the future, they will become an underground and subversive organization again as what happened under President Nasser, Sadat, and Mubarak. It seems it's déjà vu all over again for the Brotherhood. Every time they try and assert themselves and try and become a legitimate political organization, the government cracks down - specifically the military and secularist opposition.
I agree! I don't see the MB going away anytime soon. Even though their image outside of Egypt may take a hit (for reasons I stated above). This certainly seems like a cycle repeating itself. Crackdowns on the MB, they go underground, and, the topper, the military continues to rule the country.

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Second, we may also see another period of violence by the Brotherhood akin to what occurred during their founding by Hassan al Bana when they wanted to remove the British from Egypt or when they lost to Israel over the Palestinian issue and had revolted against King Farouk and his government. Another example is when they tried to assassinate Nasser by the more extreme members of the organization allegedly orchestrated by Sayyd Qutb - one of the founders of violent Islam in his manifesto "Signposts on the Road"
I am glad you mentioned Sayyid Qutb. He is such an important figure to the Jihadist, but few people actually know who he is. For those that don't know, Sayyid Qutb sought the creation of an Islamic society based on Sharia law. This was the only way to avoid Jahiliyyah. Jihad becomes the method to break away from Jahiliyyah and reach true freedom which is found in a society based on Islam. Sayyid believed freedom was achieved through Islam because such a society is not based on one where men are servants to men, but rather a society where men strive to serve God. Jihad also is defined as being defensive. It is defensive in nature because it defends man against tyranny and other elements which limit man's freedom.

Jahiliyyah = the state of ignorance that exists without the guidance of God. The term applied to pre-Islamic Arabia. For Sayyid it applied to the American and European societies whose system of politics and laws were manmade.

A copy of Milestones/Signposts if anyone is interested http://majalla.org/books/2005/qutb-nilestone.pdf

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Old 08-22-2013, 08:02 AM   #49
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I am glad you mentioned Sayyid Qutb. He is such an important figure to the Jihadist, but few people actually know who he is. For those that don't know, Sayyid Qutb sought the creation of an Islamic society based on Sharia law. This was the only way to avoid Jahiliyyah. Jihad becomes the method to break away from Jahiliyyah and reach true freedom which is found in a society based on Islam. Sayyid believed freedom was achieved through Islam because such a society is not based on one where men are servants to men, but rather a society where men strive to serve God. Jihad also is defined as being defensive. It is defensive in nature because it defends man against tyranny and other elements which limit man's freedom.

Jahiliyyah = the state of ignorance that exists without the guidance of God. The term applied to pre-Islamic Arabia. For Sayyid it applied to the American and European societies whose system of politics and laws were manmade.

A copy of Milestones/Signposts if anyone is interested http://majalla.org/books/2005/qutb-nilestone.pdf

What is interesting is how the Muslim Brotherhood has set itself apart from other more violent extremists groups such as al Qaida. When Hassan al Hudaybi became the Supreme Guide of the Brotherhood in the 1950s, he refuted Sayyd Qutbs teachings and rejected violence. As a result, the Brotherhood has been relatively peaceful. They even rejected violence during the Arab Spring. This is not to say that everyone on the Brotherhood is moderate and peaceful. They do have there more devout, pious, conservative, and even extreme members.

So we'll see what happens.

In regards to Qutb and to add what you just stated, what set himself apart was that he believed in reform through violence. Since the Brotherhood, at the time, wasn't very militant, the likes of people like Ayman Zawahiri left the Brotherhood and joined al Qaida because they saw no room for their more violent ideology in the Muslim Brotherhood.

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Old 08-22-2013, 08:09 AM   #50
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I can't flicking stand AQ,Taliban, Muslim brotherhood, Hamas, the lot of them.
lol

In my opinion, the Muslim Brotherhood is not exactly the "Islamic boogeyman" the West makes them out to be. We should be more worried about AQ.
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Old 08-22-2013, 08:20 AM   #51
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:05 AM   #52
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Reports are still varied on what actually occurred, so I don't think they know who did what, and when/why/etc.
What are our options here (USA)?

Maybe I'm mistaken but the rebels are comprised/backed by the very same terrorists which had connections to 9-11, right? If I'm correct why would we want to get involved?
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:08 AM   #53
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It is BS, The opposition are a bunch of extremists. This was proven by the russians couple weeks ago. I say let Assad knock them down. If we get involved then we will create another Egypt.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:15 AM   #54
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It is BS, The opposition are a bunch of extremists. This was proven by the russians couple weeks ago. I say let Assad knock them down. If we get involved then we will create another Egypt.
The issue is much deeper than "a bunch of extremists". Some of it is due to sectarian issues such as Assad being an Alawite, the Alawites being the minority in Syria. It's also due to his iron fist rule for years and an uprising that took hold after the Arab Spring that originated in Tunisia.

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Old 08-25-2013, 05:31 PM   #55
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I am glad you mentioned Sayyid Qutb. He is such an important figure to the Jihadist, but few people actually know who he is. For those that don't know, Sayyid Qutb sought the creation of an Islamic society based on Sharia law. This was the only way to avoid Jahiliyyah. Jihad becomes the method to break away from Jahiliyyah and reach true freedom which is found in a society based on Islam. Sayyid believed freedom was achieved through Islam because such a society is not based on one where men are servants to men, but rather a society where men strive to serve God. Jihad also is defined as being defensive. It is defensive in nature because it defends man against tyranny and other elements which limit man's freedom.

Jahiliyyah = the state of ignorance that exists without the guidance of God. The term applied to pre-Islamic Arabia. For Sayyid it applied to the American and European societies whose system of politics and laws were manmade.

A copy of Milestones/Signposts if anyone is interested http://majalla.org/books/2005/qutb-nilestone.pdf
Some very interesting stuff being posted in this thread.

I've just finished reading "The Siege of Mecca" about the taking of the Grand Mosque in Mecca in 1979 by a group of ultra hardcore Muslims who believed that the Mahdi was amongst their number and would rise defeat the enemies of Islam. Oddly, the prophecy had Jesus Christ doing much of the smiting of the enemies of Islam. The siege was put down after a couple of weeks and much bloodshed on both sides. c. 70-odd surviving members of the "rebels" (including their leader Juhayman al-Otaybi) were beheaded across 8 Saudi cities. It's a fascinating look at how a theocracy works (or doesn't as the case may be) and it resulted in a slowing down of westernisation in the Kingdom and a re-balancing of the influence of the shura councils.

It's not a well known event in the West, but the folks who really invaded the heart of Islam weren't the decadent Western nations, but were descendants from the prophet himself.

Of course, Kitchener put down a previous incarnation of the Mahdi at Ondurman (in Sudan) at the end of the 19th century (the Mahdi was the ruler of the famous whirling dervishes), but not before the Mahdi's men had destroyed the British garrison, including the killing of General Gordon - at the time a hero of the British Empire.

The Middle East is a fascinating place.
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Old 08-26-2013, 05:01 PM   #56
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Some very interesting stuff being posted in this thread.

I've just finished reading "The Siege of Mecca" about the taking of the Grand Mosque in Mecca in 1979 by a group of ultra hardcore Muslims who believed that the Mahdi was amongst their number and would rise defeat the enemies of Islam. Oddly, the prophecy had Jesus Christ doing much of the smiting of the enemies of Islam. The siege was put down after a couple of weeks and much bloodshed on both sides. c. 70-odd surviving members of the "rebels" (including their leader Juhayman al-Otaybi) were beheaded across 8 Saudi cities. It's a fascinating look at how a theocracy works (or doesn't as the case may be) and it resulted in a slowing down of westernisation in the Kingdom and a re-balancing of the influence of the shura councils.

It's not a well known event in the West, but the folks who really invaded the heart of Islam weren't the decadent Western nations, but were descendants from the prophet himself.

Of course, Kitchener put down a previous incarnation of the Mahdi at Ondurman (in Sudan) at the end of the 19th century (the Mahdi was the ruler of the famous whirling dervishes), but not before the Mahdi's men had destroyed the British garrison, including the killing of General Gordon - at the time a hero of the British Empire.

The Middle East is a fascinating place.
I have the Siege of Mecca, but haven't read it yet. I know about the event. Apparently at the time it was overshadowed by the revolution in Iran. But you are right, another important, fairly recent, event in the Middle East that many Westerns do not know about. With so much involvement in the Middle East it is astonishing that Americans know very little about the region. Here be dragons (terrorists).

On another note it looks like the Germans are not to thrilled about intervention in Syria. 60% oppose intervention.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/0...-intervention/

With the idea of intervention being thrown around, what would be the end goal in Syria?

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Old 08-26-2013, 05:31 PM   #57
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I have the Siege of Mecca, but haven't read it yet. I know about the event. Apparently at the time it was overshadowed by the revolution in Iran. But you are right, another important, fairly recent, event in the Middle East that many Westerns do not know about. With so much involvement in the Middle East it is astonishing that Americans know very little about the region. Here be dragons (terrorists).

On another note it looks like the Germans are not to thrilled about intervention in Syria. 60% oppose intervention.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/0...-intervention/

With the idea of intervention being thrown around, what would be the end goal in Syria?
Because the media in this country is garbage and tends to not educate Americans, but rather focus on insignificant issues like the Zimmerman case or the latest and greatest celebrities. I watched BBC news a few times, and was surprised at how much one can find out about the world in just a half hour. If you could turn the Middle East into a dramatic reality TV show, you'd have more buy in from Americans.
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Old 08-26-2013, 06:22 PM   #58
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Opposition says as many as 1,300 killed in gas attack near Damascus

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With the idea of intervention being thrown around, what would be the end goal in Syria?
As now retired General Mattis said about Syria, "we have no moral obligation to do the impossible"

It's typical for the US to want to do something but not clearly define an end goal. Then mission creep sets in and the next thing you know we're in a quagmire.


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Old 08-26-2013, 06:29 PM   #59
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Because the media in this country is garbage and tends to not educate Americans, but rather focus on insignificant issues like the Zimmerman case or the latest and greatest celebrities. I watched BBC news a few times, and was surprised at how much one can find out about the world in just a half hour. If you could turn the Middle East into a dramatic reality TV show, you'd have more buy in from Americans.
It is a reality show. Everything happening is real and it impacts the lives of millions. It just doesn't have dimwitted Hollywood types carrying on about shoes and how their fantasy vacations are boring or ignorant rednecks that need subtitles when speaking English.

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As now retired General Mattis said about Syria, "we have no moral obligation to do the impossible"

It's typical for the US to want to do something but not clearly define an end goal. Then mission creep sets in and the next thing you know we're in a quagmire.

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Sometimes the best moral action is no action. No point in making a situation worse for the sake of "moral interests". I agree with the General.

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Old 08-26-2013, 06:36 PM   #60
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Seems like Assad is saying that the sarin gas was deployed by the rebels. Would be a great way for them to yank the US into the conflict.
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