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Old 08-23-2013, 01:28 PM   #61
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So what does that mean if my weekly earnings are higher than a professional degree yet I only completed high school?
It means that your interpretation indicates that they didn't teach you enough about graphs and charts in high school.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:28 PM   #62
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Fair points. I'm still of the opinion that given the correct major, and drive (which many do NOT have) college is the right course. These are current statistics:



I think those numbers make a degree worth it, as long as you're not exiting the system with 6 figure debt.
Even those numbers are still tainted by people who have already been in the workforce for a long time back when degrees were still relatively rare.

Look at the current state of the JD market. It's absolutely terrible, even for partners at some Big Law firms. In the 80s and early 90s, having a law degree was a license to print money. So while the newest class of law school graduates are getting crushed, they're still not impacting the overall statistics because we're still counting around 40 years worth of JD graduates. The MBA market is rapidly becoming a similar environment.

I'm not saying that college isn't worth it. And you've thrown in enough caveats (don't go into six figure debt, get a worthwhile major) to make your point valid. But we still have to deal with the fact that half of all high school graduates are going to college in its current state. And only half of them graduate within 6 years. This is obviously a public policy disaster.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:30 PM   #63
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Basically, people who are taught to work based on formulas. Oy vey!
There's a lot of creativity involved in it. It's not just formulas. There are tried and true methods that should be followed, yes, but you must be creative with those formulas in order to really do something good with it all. For example, being able to describe something you see as a number is hugely valuable. That number very well could turn into an extraordinarily useful input for a model. Or, it could be that you find that number you've been making decisions off of is totally the wrong way to go about it. It's really easy to visually look at something and say, "This looks similar to that, so I will base my decision on what I am seeing." But turning "This looks similar to that" into a number requires a lot of creativity.

And even more importantly, you need to be able to explain it to someone like they're 5 - which is a huge problem with a lot of new hires in these fields, actually. That should be taught more in school.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:35 PM   #64
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So what does that mean if my weekly earnings are higher than a professional degree yet I only completed high school?

Sent from my Obamaphone
I'm sure you learned what "median" means in highschool, and all of the implications of such a term in reference to statistics.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:37 PM   #65
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Even those numbers are still tainted by people who have already been in the workforce for a long time back when degrees were still relatively rare.

Look at the current state of the JD market. It's absolutely terrible, even for partners at some Big Law firms. In the 80s and early 90s, having a law degree was a license to print money. So while the newest class of law school graduates are getting crushed, they're still not impacting the overall statistics because we're still counting around 40 years worth of JD graduates. The MBA market is rapidly becoming a similar environment.

I'm not saying that college isn't worth it. And you've thrown in enough caveats (don't go into six figure debt, get a worthwhile major) to make your point valid. But we still have to deal with the fact that half of all high school graduates are going to college in its current state. And only half of them graduate within 6 years. This is obviously a public policy disaster.
Fair points on all accounts
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:40 PM   #66
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Re: Article & Discussion: Obama Takes on the College Cartel

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I'm sure you learned what "median" means in highschool, and all of the implications of such a term in reference to statistics.
Indeed

Sent from my Obamaphone
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:00 PM   #67
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There's a lot of creativity involved in it. It's not just formulas. There are tried and true methods that should be followed, yes, but you must be creative with those formulas in order to really do something good with it all. For example, being able to describe something you see as a number is hugely valuable. That number very well could turn into an extraordinarily useful input for a model. Or, it could be that you find that number you've been making decisions off of is totally the wrong way to go about it. It's really easy to visually look at something and say, "This looks similar to that, so I will base my decision on what I am seeing." But turning "This looks similar to that" into a number requires a lot of creativity.

And even more importantly, you need to be able to explain it to someone like they're 5 - which is a huge problem with a lot of new hires in these fields, actually. That should be taught more in school.
Anecdotal evidence, sure, but in my own experience, 95% of engineers think the same way and the longer they're in the field the more alike they think.

IT guys are a bit different, but predictable in their own way. Nothing against either, but must one choose a STEM degree if they want to get a higher degree of education?
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:36 PM   #68
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Anecdotal evidence, sure, but in my own experience, 95% of engineers think the same way and the longer they're in the field the more alike they think.

IT guys are a bit different, but predictable in their own way. Nothing against either, but must one choose a STEM degree if they want to get a higher degree of education?
They don't have to, but if they want something worthwhile they'll need to either do that, or be a lawyer. The ROI on most liberal arts degrees or soft sciences isn't very high.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:42 PM   #69
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They don't have to, but if they want something worthwhile they'll need to either do that, or be a lawyer. The ROI on most liberal arts degrees or soft sciences isn't very high.
Making it highly improbable that our future generations will be well rounded and varied in their background. Instead you'll have a bunch of people who went into fields that will be profitable regardless of their interest in said field. We'll have a bunch of even shittier engineers than we do now.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:45 PM   #70
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Making it highly improbable that our future generations will be well rounded and varied in their background. Instead you'll have a bunch of people who went into fields that will be profitable regardless of their interest in said field. We'll have a bunch of even shittier engineers than we do now.
No, you increase the interest in these fields at young ages because there's a serious problem in America of people finding interest in science and mathematics. Sorry, but there's nothing useful about someone with a degree in English or art. They add no real value to anything.

The people who graduated with these degrees are currently working 2 cubicles away to me talking to customers on the phone trying to sell our product, something that is more or less unskilled labor. I know this because they've talked with us before and are recent college grads.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:49 PM   #71
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No, you increase the interest in these fields at young ages because there's a serious problem in America of people finding interest in science and mathematics. Sorry, but there's nothing useful about someone with a degree in English or art. They add no real value to anything.
I have a degree in English. I used to make a pretty good living as a copywriter, editor, and creative director before I went to law school. All of the people in the ad agencies and marketing communications departments I worked in over several years had either graphic design, art, or English degrees. Some of them made very good money.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:53 PM   #72
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Sorry, but there's nothing useful about someone with a degree in English or art. They add no real value to anything.
That's an opinion.

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The people who graduated with these degrees are currently working 2 cubicles away to me talking to customers on the phone trying to sell our product, something that is more or less unskilled labor. I know this because they've talked with us before and are recent college grads.
And that's anecdotal evidence. Personally, I find it very refreshing when engineers can communicate, which, sadly is not a common occurrence.

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I have a degree in English. I used to make a pretty good living as a copywriter, editor, and creative director before I went to law school. All of the people in the ad agencies and marketing communications departments I worked in over several years had either graphic design, art, or English degrees. Some of them made very good money.


Disclosure: I am not an English major.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #73
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I have a degree in English. I used to make a pretty good living as a copywriter, editor, and creative director before I went to law school. All of the people in the ad agencies and marketing communications departments I worked in over several years had either graphic design, art, or English degrees. Some of them made very good money.
This is true - though, I am sure you know, it's an extremely difficult industry to really get into since it's absurdly competitive. My brother is in communications as well, and he's doing fine and has said similar things to me in terms of his new job search. Things like working with graphic design, web design, or editing things. The real key thing he's told me is being able to not only write, but be able to code and work directly with webpages and whanot - which, again, breaks down into having some minor CompSci knowledge.

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And that's anecdotal evidence. Personally, I find it very refreshing when engineers can communicate, which, sadly is not a common occurrence.
Okay, then here are some hard stats.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/Article...of-50000-plus/

More than half of those are STEM.

In addition, my own degree not listed on the site had an avg. starting salary of $95,700 for this year.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #74
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Disclosure: I am not an English major.
What was your major? I was Econ/psych and I found it to be generally worthless (although I truly enjoyed my psych classes).
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:00 PM   #75
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What was your major? I was Econ/psych and I found it to be generally worthless (although I truly enjoyed my psych classes).
I've mentioned it before, but I don't feel like disclosing it now, mainly due to some people's strong insistence that I do.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:06 PM   #76
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This is true - though, I am sure you know, it's an extremely difficult industry to really get into since it's absurdly competitive. My brother is in communications as well, and he's doing fine and has said similar things to me in terms of his new job search. Things like working with graphic design, web design, or editing things. The real key thing he's told me is being able to not only write, but be able to code and work directly with webpages and whanot - which, again, breaks down into having some minor CompSci knowledge.
It is absurdly competitive. Fortunately for me, I was good at it, so I was able to make a go of it.

Quote:
Okay, then here are some hard stats.

http://www.careerbuilder.com/Article...of-50000-plus/

More than half of those are STEM.
I'm not sure how we go from the easy-to-support argument that "STEM majors are well compensated, typically" to "English majors add no value to anything."
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:15 PM   #77
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We'll all be surrounded by engineers and IT guys. The horror!

Basically, people who are taught to work based on formulas. Oy vey!
The supply for engineers is low while demand is up. You're quite the pessimist. Engineers do quite well in a variety of fields besides engineering. Some of the best sales guys were formally engineers.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:23 PM   #78
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I'm not sure how we go from the easy-to-support argument that "STEM majors are well compensated, typically" to "English majors add no value to anything."
Basically the point I was very poorly and snobily trying to convey is, for most jobs, you need some sort of very basic computer or science mixed in to do well in today's society. Usually it will boil down to things like HTML or other types of coding, because that is the main way people are getting the word out there. SEO, skimming the code of other competitors' webpages, knowing how search engines work, etc. are all very important aspects of writing and marketing.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:41 PM   #79
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Basically the point I was very poorly and snobily trying to convey is, for most jobs, you need some sort of very basic computer or science mixed in to do well in today's society. Usually it will boil down to things like HTML or other types of coding, because that is the main way people are getting the word out there. SEO, skimming the code of other competitors' webpages, knowing how search engines work, etc. are all very important aspects of writing and marketing.
I can agree with this.

Keep in mind that my degree, although in the English department, was in rhetoric and composition--basically a degree in formal and informal logic. I could have easily ported those skills over into a mathematics or engineering educational environment and done reasonably well. English departments aren't just full of people arguing about Shakespeare and parsing middle-English poetry.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:43 PM   #80
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We'll all be surrounded by engineers and IT guys. The horror!
I am...and it is.

Says the well employed drama major who didn't even finish getting the degree.
(So much for not being able to get a job if you were a drama major)
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