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Old 08-23-2013, 05:46 PM   #81
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I've mentioned it before, but I don't feel like disclosing it now, mainly due to some people's strong insistence that I do.
....alright
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:49 PM   #82
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I am...and it is.

Says the well employed drama major who didn't even finish getting the degree.
(So much for not being able to get a job if you were a drama major)
I've got another excerpt from the book I'm reading that pretty much supports your point.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:50 PM   #83
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I've mentioned it before, but I don't feel like disclosing it now, mainly due to some people's strong insistence that I do.
Hey what was your major and what do you do for employment? Just checking out the diversity of OTers.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:52 PM   #84
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The supply for engineers is low while demand is up. You're quite the pessimist. Engineers do quite well in a variety of fields besides engineering. Some of the best sales guys were formally engineers.
And some of the best engineers are history and lit majors. Your point would be?

A STEM degree might help you land the job, it doesn't mean you will be good at the job. Busa has a valid point. The glut in STEM degrees by people who don't really care about it will result in a bunch of "meh" engineers that probably just aren't that good. We are already starting to see this happen in tech. An influx of of folks that went and got their CS degrees in the early 00s. Most are mediocre at best...on a good day...with a tail wind.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:56 PM   #85
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I've got another excerpt from the book I'm reading that pretty much supports your point.
The valley is getting to be a culturally rotting sewage center. It is so filled with people who know nothing except tech. No lit, no art, no film, no history, zilch, nada, squadoosh.

It is a cultural wasteland. If you want to sit around and jerk off over how good python is but spring is better, fine. But, if that is the extent of your culture, society is doomed....and rightfully so.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:01 PM   #86
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:02 PM   #87
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And some of the best engineers are history and lit majors. Your point would be?

A STEM degree might help you land the job, it doesn't mean you will be good at the job. Busa has a valid point. The glut in STEM degrees by people who don't really care about it will result in a bunch of "meh" engineers that probably just aren't that good. We are already starting to see this happen in tech. An influx of of folks that went and got their CS degrees in the early 00s. Most are mediocre at best...on a good day...with a tail wind.
Point being, a STEM degree is an excellent foundation for a well-rounded individual in the workplace and in life, if they can indeed be open-minded and move beyond their comfort zone.

This "meh" mentality has already happend with the liberal arts degrees.

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The valley is getting to be a culturally rotting sewage center. It is so filled with people who know nothing except tech. No lit, no art, no film, no history, zilch, nada, squadoosh.

It is a cultural wasteland. If you want to sit around and jerk off over how good python is but spring is better, fine. But, if that is the extent of your culture, society is doomed....and rightfully so.
How do you know it is just "tech". If I remember correctly, high schools these days still make you learn history, take art, and literature classes. Hell, even tech colleges require it to expose individuals to other areas of higher learning, so as to prevent bigoted views of the society around them.

People who aspire to be unique and different from their peers will recognize this. Society is not doomed. If anything, it will be enriched.
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Old 08-25-2013, 09:24 PM   #88
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Hopefully it's not smoke and mirrors and is a genuine approach in taking steps to prevent further accelerated inflation of college costs.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:37 AM   #89
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Point being, a STEM degree is an excellent foundation for a well-rounded individual in the workplace and in life, if they can indeed be open-minded and move beyond their comfort zone.
From what I have seen, that is getting to be a pretty big "if".

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This "meh" mentality has already happend with the liberal arts degrees.
No argument there.


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How do you know it is just "tech". If I remember correctly, high schools these days still make you learn history, take art, and literature classes. Hell, even tech colleges require it to expose individuals to other areas of higher learning, so as to prevent bigoted views of the society around them.
At the high school level, art is not a required subject. History is bare-bones at best. Lit, especially english lit, is getting to be depressing. They don't even cover an entire play by Shakespeare anymore, just a selection of a couple of scenes. It is so homogenized at the high school level, it is worrisome. With so many kids not wanting to upset the apple cart and possibly impact their GPA, there is no motivation to challenge "the conventional wisdom" on interpretation of a piece of lit.
As for knowing it is just "tech". Go to the bar and coffeeshops around the valley. Keep your ears peeled for the conversations of others or engage them directly. Tech is the de rigueur topic of discussion by a wide margin.

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People who aspire to be unique and different from their peers will recognize this. Society is not doomed. If anything, it will be enriched.
This is the point I see, be it socially or even technically, fewer and fewer that aspire to be unique and different from their peers.

Homogenization might be good for milk, for society not so much.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:52 AM   #90
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At the high school level, art is not a required subject. History is bare-bones at best. Lit, especially english lit, is getting to be depressing. They don't even cover an entire play by Shakespeare anymore, just a selection of a couple of scenes. It is so homogenized at the high school level, it is worrisome. With so many kids not wanting to upset the apple cart and possibly impact their GPA, there is no motivation to challenge "the conventional wisdom" on interpretation of a piece of lit.
I blame the government and local school systems and parents for this. Government in the education sector is great in that it standardizes the system and ensures an equal foundation for all. However if those standards are too low or off target or we are hiring teachers who aren't passionate and just want to herd sheep, what good are we doing for society?


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This is the point I see, be it socially or even technically, fewer and fewer that aspire to be unique and different from their peers.

Homogenization might be good for milk, for society not so much.
So be it. Let those who are wise and conscious trump their peers. And hopefully set the example of why it is important to be diverse.
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:26 PM   #91
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Associate Degree: For people who know right away what they want to do for a career.

Bachelors: An associate degree with 2 years of wasted bullsh!t.

Masters: A 2-3 year in-depth extension onto what an Associate gave you.

PHD: A big circle jerk into theory. Time spent > knowledge gained.


CLIFFS: 90% of people would be fine an associate degree. Bachelors is fvcking waste of time. Master should be a Bachelor. PHD is loved by Sallie Mae and great for people who love to hear themselves talk.
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Old 08-27-2013, 01:10 PM   #92
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Associate Degree: For people who know right away what they want to do for a career.

Bachelors: An associate degree with 2 years of wasted bullsh!t.

Masters: A 2-3 year in-depth extension onto what an Associate gave you.

PHD: A big circle jerk into theory. Time spent > knowledge gained.


CLIFFS: 90% of people would be fine an associate degree. Bachelors is fvcking waste of time. Master should be a Bachelor. PHD is loved by Sallie Mae and great for people who love to hear themselves talk.
Bachelors is great for engineering. In a typical semester an engineering student is at 15-18 credit hours. There is a lot to be learned.

Other "soft" majors can probably be done in 2 years or less.
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Old 08-27-2013, 01:18 PM   #93
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Bachelors is great for engineering. In a typical semester an engineering student is at 15-18 credit hours. There is a lot to be learned.

Other "soft" majors can probably be done in 2 years or less.
I think a B.S. is good for most technical majors. Finance, economics, mathematics, accounting, engineering, sciences, etc.

I know I am more well rounded due to SOME of my non-core classes.
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:00 PM   #94
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I think a B.S. is good for most technical majors. Finance, economics, mathematics, accounting, engineering, sciences, etc.

I know I am more well rounded due to SOME of my non-core classes.
Agreed. I would say all of my classes were beneficial. I didn't take any "fluff". Even non-core classes I would try to find relevance and possible applicability.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:07 PM   #95
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Bachelors is great for engineering. In a typical semester an engineering student is at 15-18 credit hours. There is a lot to be learned.

Other "soft" majors can probably be done in 2 years or less.
And what was your major? If it was engineering, this is yet another example of "well my stuff is worth 4 years, but, X, Y, Z isn't."

As a theatre major I was at 16 to 20 credit hours a quarter. There is a reason a single theatre arts performance class is 4 credit hours in a quarter. Do you have any idea the work that is involved in a class like that? It's 15 hours a week (3.5 * 4) just in rehearsal, that is not including time spent working on ones own, doing all the extra work. That is another 10-20 hours a week. So you have a single class that is a minimum of 25 hours a week. Any idea what it takes to design, mold, & finish a piece of latex prosthetic makeup and BTW, you have a week to learn it and do it. You think that there isn't "a lot to be learned" in your alleged "soft majors"?

Puhleez. If you ain't done it, how do you know how much there is to be learned.

If you want to say a lib arts degree is not economically useful, OK. I don't agree with that, but, I can see the argument. However, to say that it is easy or there isn't a lot to be learned is poppycock.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:57 PM   #96
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And what was your major? If it was engineering, this is yet another example of "well my stuff is worth 4 years, but, X, Y, Z isn't."

As a theatre major I was at 16 to 20 credit hours a quarter. There is a reason a single theatre arts performance class is 4 credit hours in a quarter. Do you have any idea the work that is involved in a class like that? It's 15 hours a week (3.5 * 4) just in rehearsal, that is not including time spent working on ones own, doing all the extra work. That is another 10-20 hours a week. So you have a single class that is a minimum of 25 hours a week. Any idea what it takes to design, mold, & finish a piece of latex prosthetic makeup and BTW, you have a week to learn it and do it. You think that there isn't "a lot to be learned" in your alleged "soft majors"?

Puhleez. If you ain't done it, how do you know how much there is to be learned.

If you want to say a lib arts degree is not economically useful, OK. I don't agree with that, but, I can see the argument. However, to say that it is easy or there isn't a lot to be learned is poppycock.
Puhleez. I've obviously rustled your jimmies. Where did I mention a theatre degree being useless?

And I never mentioned a lib arts degree is useless. I stated this before and I'll state it again. I applaud individuals who are passionate about what they are learning and take an active interest in ensuring they are studying what they enjoy. Far too often I saw students fall back on the lib arts degrees because it was a shortcut to a 4 year "good time". They essentially gave the lib arts degrees a bad rep and that is unfortunate.

I said "soft" degrees. History, communications, etc. These degrees don't require much outside work in addition to normal classroom instruction.

Any degree that requires outside classroom learning/application such as a lab, research, or recital is going to require more time. Practically every class I had, had a least a 3-5 hour lab attached to it. I also had to participate in undergraduate research.

I studied packaging engineering with a focus in food processing/packaging. Lots of chemistry, industrial processes, and certifications. Of course I also took some courses in economics and marketing.

And read here. I agreed with Evolve.

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I think a B.S. is good for most technical majors. Finance, economics, mathematics, accounting, engineering, sciences, etc.

I know I am more well rounded due to SOME of my non-core classes.
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Old 08-27-2013, 07:02 PM   #97
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I thoroughly enjoyed my easy A liberal arts classes, I just don't think that a BA is worth over $200,000 in tuition.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:04 PM   #98
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Bachelors is great for engineering. In a typical semester an engineering student is at 15-18 credit hours. There is a lot to be learned.

Other "soft" majors can probably be done in 2 years or less.
Until I got a career, I thought I learned a lot in college.


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Old 08-27-2013, 09:12 PM   #99
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I took classes that I figured were going to be beneficial in the field I wanted to be in and it turns they were. Each individual is different. Sure I'm learning a lot more in addition to what I learned, but without some of the chemistry and engineering basics, I wouldn't understand some of the more complex issues and challenges I run into.

We hire some mechanical engineers every now and then for the product development group I work in, and they are pretty much lost when it comes to polymers and food science/processing. It's like starting from ground zero with them. Chemical engineers fare far better.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:56 AM   #100
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I think a B.S. is good for most technical majors. Finance, economics, mathematics, accounting, engineering, sciences, etc.

I know I am more well rounded due to SOME of my non-core classes.
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Bachelors is great for engineering. In a typical semester an engineering student is at 15-18 credit hours. There is a lot to be learned.

Other "soft" majors can probably be done in 2 years or less.
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And I never mentioned a lib arts degree is useless. I stated this before and I'll state it again. I applaud individuals who are passionate about what they are learning and take an active interest in ensuring they are studying what they enjoy. Far too often I saw students fall back on the lib arts degrees because it was a shortcut to a 4 year "good time". They essentially gave the lib arts degrees a bad rep and that is unfortunate.

I said "soft" degrees. History, communications, etc. These degrees don't require much outside work in addition to normal classroom instruction.

Any degree that requires outside classroom learning/application such as a lab, research, or recital is going to require more time. Practically every class I had, had a least a 3-5 hour lab attached to it. I also had to participate in undergraduate research.

I studied packaging engineering with a focus in food processing/packaging. Lots of chemistry, industrial processes, and certifications. Of course I also took some courses in economics and marketing.

And read here. I agreed with Evolve.
This is where things get murky and it gets down to school by school, major by major.
These "soft majors" occur in many areas. MIS majors are still "STEM", but, from those I have spoken to, that was pretty much a cake walk/"good time" major.

With the advent of publicly available, large scale, indexed search engines perhaps generic history is a cake walk major. Back in the 80's those folks spent more time in libraries searching for materials than anybody. They were even "pasty white" than the CS majors. Let alone if you were specializing in an area. Medieval lit for example, and the art history were in the 10th circle hell. (Dante was resurrected just to come up with a 10th circle.)

There were some cake majors as well. Psych was one, and marine biology was another depending on the school. One SoCal university had surfing as an advanced marine bio elective.

I find it interesting that Comm is a cake major. It used to require a minimum of 16 linguistics units. And those were some rough classes. Now some of the foriegn language majors were pretty mush "soft majors" if you came from a family that spoke the language all your life growing up. (Spanish was a leader as a "good time" major in SoCal".) CS was certainly a tougher major back in the day. Coding in assembly on old time-share systems wasn't simple and memory mgmt was critical. Now they have OO languages like Java that manage memory and do garbage collection automatically. (Which explains so much memory pig software today.)

Every area has its share of "good time" majors and it depends on the school and how serious and how much focus they put certain programs. Stereotyping majors as "serious" or "good time" or "tough" is as ludicrous as saying "all whites below the Mason-Dixon line own white sheets with eye holes in them, or all new yorkers are rude, or all californians just get stoned and surf.
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