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///M3 Forum
The BMW E46 ///M3 is the M version E46 and puts out an amazing 333 HP and 262 lb-ft of torque at stock specs! There are an amazing amount of modifications for both the coupe and convertible models so read up and get started modifying your cars today!

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Old 09-13-2013, 05:16 PM   #21
JamaicanBlueE46M3
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I would think that the ZCP brakes are not necessarily for a greater stopping distance but maybe to allow the brake rotors to run cooler, thus improving the efficiency of the brakes especially on the track.
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Alex323Ci View Post
well some of this i can agree with but most of it i can't. for the reasons i will state and see if you agree.
Brakes are infact better. several magazines testings shown these same CSL brakes to stop even better than the 911 GT3. these aren't thrown together, these are larger, lighter and floating hat design. these are proven to have shorter stopping and were installed again on which car..the CSL. which as we know is ///M divisions upgrade to the M3.

Quote:
I have carefully read exhaustive brake discussion threads on E46 M3 braking, brake bias, variation between OEM pad materials - including differences between US and Euro pads (including Euro-only CSL pads) such as this one:

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=412927
(there are many more of that caliber that receive critical analysis, challenge and discussion)

and I have not encountered any authoritative testing results based upon good method that show ZCP brakes (lets leave the CSL moniker out of this discussion - they aren't in the U.S.) to more effective in braking the E46 M3.
Quote:
Magazine reviews? A magazine??? Based on what testing methodology? Same tires? Same starting brake temperatures? Etc? I'm open to review that test data and the test set-up - but I've never seen a magazine do that. And what a comparison between a BMW and Porsche proves between two BMW's of the same model based is puzzling to me. I can't draw any informed opinion on a comparison without method and numbers.
Steering rack, again it is a better feel. it again wasn't just pieced together to be different, it was made for/designed for again..the CSL. and personally having gone from without it to having it.. it does feel better.

Quote:
Steering rack has better "feel"? Well first - "feel", as you put it, isn't performance - and performance (not style) is what I think we are discussing. I have driven ZCP option on the track and street and find no advantage in turning the car - or in awareness of traction, understeer etc. The E46 M3 is a heavy street car - not a race car. Of course other factors/variable affect "feel" - including tire wall stiffness, profile, tire compound and tread, tire pressure etc.


Wheels, again these are BBS Germany, good wheel and better(arguably) than the other stockers. although the fronts are 0.5" thinner..again developed for the CSL. (sure i know there are many debates on 19" wheels, i concede that)

Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying that the ZCP 19" wheels contribute to any performance advantage - so this is a non-issue


M-Track mode. haven't programmed my car for it but having driven it i do like the less intrusive activation. again a fourth "performance upgrade".

Quote:
M-track was a sales hype point - trying to stroke the pizazz of the "Competition! " visions dancing life sugarplums in the minds of excited potential buyers . It does nothing to increase the performance of a car.
one could agrue the cloth seats are lighter and keep you from sliding. but i will leave that one and the other stuff to the "looks" as you said.

Quote:
Agree. Cloth seats have nothing to do with performance
so i don't quite see the 95% of the package as looks. sure there are better aftermarket options, but these from the factory have the fit and finish one would expect from ///M.

so i don't see this package just put together to gussy it up, these parts do have their merits.


As I said earlier in the thread - ZCP is a 95% cosmetic option that BMW created to keep sales of the E46 M3 from getting stale late in the production life. And they did it again for the E93 - for the same reason. BMW never claimed that any ZCP option feature made the car faster or perform better - but the ad copy made it sound exciting with a racy name like "Competition Package".
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Old 09-13-2013, 06:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JamaicanBlueE46M3 View Post
I would think that the ZCP brakes are not necessarily for a greater stopping distance but maybe to allow the brake rotors to run cooler, thus improving the efficiency of the brakes especially on the track.

ZCP drilled rotors are inferior on the track - as they are prone to spider cracking between the drilled holes and the rotors edge.
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Old 09-13-2013, 07:37 PM   #24
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you quoted my question with a link. but have posted no answer. so i will simply ask you the same question if you don't mind answering.

"for the record are you saying the CSL brakes are not an upgrade over the standard USA M3 brakes?"
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:09 PM   #25
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you quoted my question with a link. but have posted no answer. so i will simply ask you the same question if you don't mind answering.

"for the record are you saying the CSL brakes are not an upgrade over the standard USA M3 brakes?"

I am saddened to read of your disappointment.

Yes I gave you a link. You are free to read it. It is a wealth of fact-based information.

If you prefer not to read it - thats fine. I'm no-one's librarian or RA.
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:28 PM   #26
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Very minimal useful information in that thread. None of the responses give relevant information to the question. One post in the whole thread talks about one person's opinion about the CSL brakes.

You sure you posted the right link?

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:22 PM   #27
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I am saddened to read of your disappointment.
Yes I gave you a link. You are free to read it. It is a wealth of fact-based information.
If you prefer not to read it - thats fine. I'm no-one's libraria or RA.
what are you talking about, I read the linked thread.
its not very informative at all. i happen to already know first hand everything in that brake kit.

i asked a simple YES or NO question, yet you dodged it and continue to dodge it. i can't understand why.

Are you saying the CSL/ZCP brakes are Not an upgrade to the USA M3 brakes?
YES or NO?
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:41 PM   #28
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ahh sorry guys for the wrong information about the SMG =[
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Carbon Black Metallic
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:16 AM   #29
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Is it a ZCP?

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ZCP drilled rotors are inferior on the track - as they are prone to spider cracking between the drilled holes and the rotors edge.
This is the most retarded thing i've read on the internet.

Thanks for sharing.


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Old 09-14-2013, 10:58 AM   #30
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This is the most retarded thing i've read on the internet.

Thanks for sharing.


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Retarded?

Do some research.


http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=158033
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83188
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:16 PM   #31
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it looks like you only have an exception to one of the four I listed. but for the record are you saying the CSL brakes are not an upgrade over the standard USA M3 brakes?
Please answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steezy View Post
very poor source of material to back your claim. it actually shows more posts against your point. there are much better threads on this.

Again I notice you too dodge the question presented to you after being very vocal. So I quoted it again so you can answer it.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:06 PM   #32
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Please answer

very poor source of material to back your claim. it actually shows more posts against your point. there are much better threads on this.

Again I notice you too dodge the question presented to you after being very vocal. So I quoted it again so you can answer it.
Any reason you forgot to quote the second link I sent you?

"The standard steering rack sucks, but I don't know how much better the ZCP rack is.

The brakes are actually significantly WORSE if you track the car, as the rotors are VERY prone to cracking under hard use.

The suspension is reportedly a bit firmer, but how different it actually is has not been quantified.

Edit: That said, I'd get it for the steering rack alone."



"I've heard a couple people say this on the forums, but if thats the case, why does every high end sportscar (Porsches, Ferraris, etc) have cross drilled rotors? Ok, maybe not every, but most do. If they were that prone to cracking under heavy use, why would all these ultra high performance cars have them? Or is this just the case with the BMW rotors?

Just wondering...

-David
Because they look better.

Because some people are less averse to replacing their rotors after every event.

You know those kick ass fade free ceramic brakes that are an $8,000 option on the Porsche GT3? Not track worthy. The rotors crack under hard use, and then you're **** out of luck. Sure they're better, but no where near enough to justify spending the cost of the car in rotor replacements over its lifetime.

Drilled rotors are arguably better in absolute terms, but is it worth replacing them three or four times as often for a couple percentage points in improvement? I've seen a set of cross drilled rotors last 2.5 HOURS on the track before cracking ALL THE WAY THROUGH. That ain't even close to worth it, IMHO."

What more do you want? And why are you comparing CSL brakes to a stock car? The CSL isn't even available in the states. It's completely invalid. To answer your question - I don't know. It sounds like you just want to make yourself feel good because you purchased them but could've got much better brakes for the money.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:09 PM   #33
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What more do you want? And why are you comparing CSL brakes to a stock car? The CSL isn't even available in the states. It's completely invalid. To answer your questi- I don't know.
ok so, "you don't know" is your answer. seems a tad different from your earlier tone.

Why say CSL brakes..because (other than an optional pad) they're the exact same ones installed on the ZCP. that's why. and we're talking about these exact brakes. um i expected a little more knowledge out of you regarding this fact.
if you're going to state as a fact these brakes aren't any better than stock USA M3 then you better bring something more to the table to dispute BMW ///M's upgrade other than personal opinion.

like I said, there are some better aftermarket choices. but these CSL/ZCP brakes are the best BMW put on the factory M3s.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:17 PM   #34
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Is it a ZCP?

I think you should research your posts in this thread. Who spat in your test tube?

You start off by staying that 95% of a Competition Package is aesthetics, then proceed to state the predominant features of a Competition Package, which are not cosmetic. As far as i am concerned, the only cosmetic features of a Comp Package is Interlagos Blue and the interior trim - we could argue whether the wheel are purely cosmetic or offer a purpose by way of handling (or both), however, you know what they say about getting into arguments with poontangers on the internet who don't know what they're talking about....

Refer to all the smelly threads you want, how about some common sense. If cross drilled rotors were in fact an inferior product that was prone to "spider cracking", why the fvck do so many supercars have them? Do you honestly think they sit in a room and say "ok, so we've given it 500 fire fvck horsepower, better put sh1t brakes on it!"

Less surface area Hahahahahahaha. That is amazing.




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Old 09-14-2013, 10:32 PM   #35
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I think you should research your posts in this thread. Who spat in your test tube?

You start off by staying that 95% of a Competition Package is aesthetics, then proceed to state the predominant features of a Competition Package, which are not cosmetic. As far as i am concerned, the only cosmetic features of a Comp Package is Interlagos Blue and the interior trim - we could argue whether the wheel are purely cosmetic or offer a purpose by way of handling (or both), however, you know what they say about getting into arguments with poontangers on the internet who don't know what they're talking about....

Refer to all the smelly threads you want, how about some common sense. If cross drilled rotors were in fact an inferior product that was prone to "spider cracking", why the fvck do so many supercars have them? Do you honestly think they sit in a room and say "ok, so we've given it 500 fire fvck horsepower, better put sh1t brakes on it!"

Less surface area Hahahahahahaha. That is amazing.




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Do you know how logical argument works?

First off, just because all these supercars have them does not mean the E46 M3's are any good. E46 M3's are not supercars. Ever heard of marketing?

You have provided no demonstrable evidence that the ZCP brakes are in fact better overall than the normal stock brakes. What BMW "claims" means nothing - you have to demonstrate it.

Alan and I have posted threads to tests and experiences people have done/gone through, yet somehow you decide to ignore it and provide nothing demonstrable to your assertion that the ZCP brakes are any better, therefore, your assertion is absolutely invalid.

Stated above: "Very poor source to back up your claim" - where are your sources and tests? You have provided NOTHING but your own "thoughts" and opinions.
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Old 09-15-2013, 07:59 PM   #36
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Let's get back on topic:

1a. CSL brakes = competition package brakes. Also remember that the competition/CSL M3 has different rear calipers as well to compensate for change in brake bias. Regular m3 rear caliper piston = 42mm vs CSL/competition m3 rear caliper piston = 46mm. This is something most people often overlook when comparing CSL vs regular m3 brakes. Bigger piston size = bigger clamping force.

1b. Bigger front rotors with drilled holes and piece aluminum hats= better cooling from the evidence I stated in post 18. You can't change physics...

1c. Prone to spider cracking - may be. However, your argument of a pair of cross drilled rotors that failed in 2.5 hours is useless without telling us what kind of rotors they are. I have seen plain made in china "oem equivalent" rotors wrap and crack after one hour of track use.

2. Steering ratio - while you may not feel the difference, I definitely did after driving regular and competition package M3 back to back on a track and canyon runs. As minimal as it may be, it still considered a performance enhancing mod.

3. M-track mode - less interference from DSC. Difficult to argue that this is not performance enhancing. Most enthusiasts would agree with me that less traction control getting in the way = better.

4. Wheels and 5. alcantara interior bits - I will give you that the wheels and alcantara bits can be considered for looks/feel only without enhancing performance (being generous here).

So 3 out of 5 things added to competition package are, in fact, considered performance enhancing. That's 60% performance and 40% aesthetics....huge difference from the claim of 95% aesthetics.

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Old 09-17-2013, 05:25 PM   #37
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i have read some of the threads these two guys posted their info from and you hear all (w/exception 1 or 2) replies to do with how the brakes are infact better.
even from track guys and driving instructors in all those threads in forums.

BIMMER magazine ROAD TEST and featured cover article of the M3-ZCP August 2005 and i quote,
"If the tires were somewhat dissapointing, the brakes were not.
These are the best brakes ever fitted to a US -spec BMW, plain and simple."


Then in a published review from 16 yr racing and BMW CCA high performance driving instructor at Infineon Raceway. When asked what his take was after 10 plus laps.
"First of all the brakes are fantastic". You could drive all day long on those brakes.."
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:38 AM   #38
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You guys are kind of arguing about different points and with different definitions of "better."

I think the fact that the rear caliper has an increased piston size due to a changed brake bias implies that the front brakes have more stopping power (obviously just a little more) than standard brakes. I also think that having the cross drilled rotors will help with brake fade as the holes should cool the rotor down. These are both performance improvements.

However, I think what Alan and the anti-CSL brake guys are trying to say is that the fact that the drilled rotors are more suseptible to cracking/failure earlier in their life and under hard use makes the brakes worse than the standard brakes because you'll end up spending more money on replacing rotors.

I think that's also why you see drilled rotors on supercars - they want performance gains more than they want to save the owner money. Someone who buys a Ferrari is probably not going to be too concerned with having to spend more money replacing rotors, but would like to have the best braking performance.

My conclusions: The CSL/ZCP brakes provide an extremely marginal improvement in braking performance that is likely only noticed at a track. The CSL/ZCP brakes are also more prone to failure, and as a result they will be more costly to own. (I'd like to point out that if the marginal increase in braking is only noticed at the track, the brakes aren't really worth it considering the rotors are most susceptible to cracking under hard use at a track...)

If you truly just want better brakes, start with better tires, get ducting from your bumper to your rotors, maybe reduce your weight, or go big and get brembos or stop-tech. the marginal increase in performance from CSL brakes isn't at all worth the money in my opinion.

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Old 09-18-2013, 02:43 AM   #39
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actually the thread is about the Competition Package. these two guys are saying it's 95% cosmetic and then the BS meter went off. so we broke it down by it's parts added. one of those parts was the CSL brake upgrade and that's obviously not a cosmetic part and proven to anyone who reads the thread. so as you can see that proclaimation of it being 95% cosmetic is a poor claim and holds no basis being true.

bottom line is if someone is going to come out "guns a blazing" about something..they better best have some way to back such a claim.
or go to another forum where they allow false claims to stand.
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:40 AM   #40
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Let's cut through the B.S. with respect to the brakes. The CSL brakes are a huge upgrade over the standard US version M3 brakes. They have larger diameter rotors, larger calipers and pads, are of modular construction (rather than a single piece), and are cross-drilled. Yes, I have heard the arguments about cross drilling and spider cracks, but those typically appear in lower quality rotors whose holes haven't been properly chamfered. The non-drilled rotors on US market M3's were a cost-cutting measure taken by BMW. Euro-market e46 M3's all had cross drilled rotors.
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