E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > E46 BMW > General E46 Forum

General E46 Forum
This is the place to get answers, opinions and everything you need related to your E46 (sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon) BMW!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-11-2013, 01:29 PM   #1
F&N Repairs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 4
My Ride: '01 QCSB Cummins 24v
ZF5HP19 problems after replacing reverse drum. YES, I searched first.

Greetings all!


TL;DR - came to shop with no reverse, replaced the drum ONLY, now has several codes and goes into limp after trying for 3rd gear. Also replaced a rectangular section sealing ring with silicon because my boss and the customer have less knowledge than money they're willing to spend. Cannot diagnose, need help!


Let me preface by saying that I'm not a BMW owner, I'm a mechanic with recent BMW woes. That being said, We have a 2000 323i here at the shop that has me pulling my hair out at this point. It came in with a complaint of no reverse. We dropped the pan and found pieces of the 'D' drum sitting in oil that looked like it came out of my Cummins. I recommended removing the trans, performing a full overhaul (all new bearings, seals, o-rings, clutch packs, the whole pizza box), and replacing the broken clutch drum. The customer didn't want to spend any money and the boss didn't want to let the job walk away so they settled on replacing just the broken drum and the four o-rings for the pistons that apply the clutches. Transmission came out without issue. After draining, I opened it up on the bench, removed the filter and set it aside to re-use (sigh....). Valve body came off all together, only removed the ~21 larger-head bolts. Removed the two plastic fluid passages (yellow pieces between VB and front pump) intact, as well as the spring-loaded metal piece and spring from the pump. Pulled the pump off and thoroughly cleaned everything as it came out. I swapped all the old parts from the old drum to the new (with new o-rings on the pistons) and started re-assembly. Everything was going fine until I get to the shaft that runs from the 'A' and 'E' clutch up into the torque converter. On this shaft, there are two rectangular section sealing rings, and one o-ring. I noticed that the foremost rectangular section ring (smaller diameter of the two) was torn and misshapen. This ring is only available as part of the master overhaul kit so again I recommend a full rebuild and am denied. Now, I'm not proud of this next part, and if the excuse "I just work here/do what I'm told" wasn't good enough for Göring, then it's probably not good enough for me either, but, we filled the groove with RTV silicone (high temp), and let 'er cure overnight. Now I'm sure many of you are immediately going to default to this being my problem, but hear me out first. Fast forward to trans re-installation, and fluid fill. We filled the trans through the 8mm hex plug on the left rear corner of the trans, just above the oil pan. Added fluid until it dripped out, started engine, shifted through all positions 4 times and then refilled again while running in park. Trans took a total of ~8/9 quarts, which sounds good to me because total capacity is 9.30qts, but you can never really completely empty the torque converter. When we test drive the car, it now has beautiful reverse. When we drive it down the highway, it shifts 1-2 no problem, then bangs HARD when it tries for 3rd (had all forward gears beforehand). CEL and transmission (!) icon come on and it goes into (i think) a limp mode where it seems to be stuck in 4th or 5th gear, max speed of ~15mph, engine revs all the way up, a la badly slipping clutch. Turn the car off and let it sit for ten minutes and everything is fine again...until 3rd gear. We pulled codes, cleared codes, reset adaptations, disconnected battery, all several times. The condition repeats itself every time.

Now...my first thought was the seal that we should've replaced, BUT, the codes suggest an electrical issue:
83 - EGS ECU internal fault (= P1893, P1894, P1895 i think)
59 - Stall monitering (??)
53 - Gear monitering 3, incorrect ratio (P0733?)
54 - Gear monitering 4, incorrect ratio (P0734?)
49 - Gear monitering (??)
Also have two codes in the ECU for an evap leak and a coolant/tstat issue.
Codes were pulled/cleared etc. with a Snap-On Modis. Also, clutch-brake application chart shows that A, B, C, D, low sprag, and G clutches are all used at least once between P, R, N, D-1, and D-2. E clutch does not engage until 4th and 5th gear. F clutch at 3rd, and for 4th and 5th. So maybe my problem has to do with F clutch? Since everything else seems to work until F clutch applies (or tries to). Now I don't have a fluid flow diagram for this tranny, but from everything I do have, it seems that the rectangular section ring that is now a home made silicon o-ring is separate enough from my problem that I should at least look elsewhere first? I guess what I really need to know is what two fluid passages does this sealing ring separate? If anyone has the exploded view handy, the piece in question is '71.020'.

Final notes, we have been searching and reading everything on the internet. This forum and bimmerfest have been extremely helpful, so we decided to post here after trying everything we could think of/was suggested to us. Hopefully somewhere out there is a ZF god that has actually read all of my ramblings and is about to drop some knowledge on me. Here's hoping! Many thanks to all who took the time to read this!! I'll be checking back and updating through the end of this fiasco.



Warning: PDF! ZF5HP19 spare parts catalog URL:
http://www.zf.com/media/media/docume...cars/5HP19.pdf_a_
__________________
Mine: 2001 Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9L Cummins 24v turbo diesel, M5, quad cab, short bed. Many mods...
Wife's: 2001 325Ci M5, and a 2006 GTO LS2 T56, both stock
F&N Repairs is offline   Reply With Quote
Ads by Google

Guests, get your FREE E46Fanatics.com membership to remove this ad.
Old 09-11-2013, 09:20 PM   #2
lszlszx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Socal
Posts: 4,892
My Ride: 328i, XC70
Whatever the problem is, it's just going to be another band aid. Replacing the reverse drum and reassembling the transmission with all the old seals and old trans filter? That's crazy.
Shifts hard in 3rd? Did you work on the accumulators?
Maybe some debris moved around and are causing the current issue.
The customer would've been better off with a used tranny.
Of course, it's easy for me to say that, since used transmissions are plentiful in Socal.
Good luck finding the problem!
__________________
lszlszx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 11:54 PM   #3
jfoj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA USA
Posts: 12,079
My Ride: '06 330CiC, '03 M5
Never been into one of these transmissions, but is it possible that somehow the wiring was mixed up for 2 of the solenoids on the valve body?

Could be a mechanical issue, but an electrical issue may be as simple as wrong wiring connected to solenoids? Likely the 3 & 4 solenoid based upon the codes?

Sounds like you likely know your way around transmissions due to the pizza box comment!

Just a thought and if this is the case, should be an easy repair?
__________________
Solve your misfires, lean codes, rough idle - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=897616

Fuel pump failures - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=929501

Temp Info - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=964491

Hidden OBC Menu - Check Voltage, Temps, Fuel Level - http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=239619

E46/E39 GM5 Door Lock Info - www.bmwgm5.com

Lower hose fan switch O-ring - BMW #13621743299

Last edited by jfoj; 09-11-2013 at 11:56 PM.
jfoj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 01:25 AM   #4
HakenTT
OEM ///Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: gross deutsches reich USA
Posts: 665
My Ride: 323i with S54
Reason why I bought my E46 cheap is, it was in similar fiasco, guy attempted repair, did not work, ordered rebuilt ZF5HP19, put in, month later it failed and then he put the car on craigslist dirt cheap, I bought it, converted it into manual.

ZF5HP19 is junk
HakenTT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 09:42 AM   #5
F&N Repairs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 4
My Ride: '01 QCSB Cummins 24v
Thanks for the replies everyone! The accumulator(s) are inside the valve body, which I did not open up. Took it off, set aside, reinstalled. That's not to say they are okay, I will certainly subscribe to the idea that opening everything up and not cleaning/rebuilding properly could have gotten some dirt or old 'D' drum pieces to move around and cause this issue. As far as the electrical connectors go, that's one thing I'm not worried about. The wire lengths are just so that you can't hook them up out of order. I am equally skeptical about the solenoids though, for the same reason that they were not removed or cleaned. The frustrating thing is that I do indeed know my way around transmissions. I have rebuilt many in the past with great success. On the lift next to me is a Pacifica with a blown trans that I'm in the middle of, and my feet are resting on a 4R100 out of an F450 dump. I enjoy the work because it's like a big puzzle and everyone else is afraid of it. That's why this is so frustrating! It should be a routine repair on a routine trans, and now I'm going crazy, haha. If it were my car, or at the very least, my shop, I would never have done the job like this, but what can you do. And a manual swap, although intriguing, isn't an option

My next move will be to hook up the Modis and individually activate all the solenoids to confirm they're working. Can't really think of much else to do at this point, but I'm not ready to admit defeat just yet. Thanks again for the replies. Will update!
__________________
Mine: 2001 Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9L Cummins 24v turbo diesel, M5, quad cab, short bed. Many mods...
Wife's: 2001 325Ci M5, and a 2006 GTO LS2 T56, both stock
F&N Repairs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 12:39 PM   #6
F&N Repairs
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 4
My Ride: '01 QCSB Cummins 24v
So with the Modis hooked up, I see that solenoid valve 1 is active up until 3rd gear, then is turned off. The car drives fine in M1 and M2, so I think I'm at least narrowing down the cause. Now, on the valve body, right next to shift solenoid 1, there is a T27 bolt. I did not touch this bolt during removal, as it is not one of the ones that holds the VB in. However, I distinctly remember during re-installation, that bolt was not tight. I figured that I had previously loosened it thinking it was a VB bolt, but now I am sure that is not the case. I had a diagram of the valve body bolts, and was very particular about it. I can't find any information on what this bolt is/does. Could it be some sort of adjustment for the solenoid valve; and now that I've tightened it, the valve is now locked in the 'on' position? A stuck 'on' #1 solenoid valve would give me the exact symptoms I have.

If the problem isn't here at the VB, I'm going to have to remove the trans again and disassemble down to the 'F' clutch. I would really hate to do that because my gut feeling is that the internals are fine.

Also, the fluid was noticeably darker, after only 20 minutes drive time on it.
__________________
Mine: 2001 Ram 2500 4x4, 5.9L Cummins 24v turbo diesel, M5, quad cab, short bed. Many mods...
Wife's: 2001 325Ci M5, and a 2006 GTO LS2 T56, both stock
F&N Repairs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 12:47 AM   #7
AlecSE46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Miami
Posts: 228
My Ride: BMW E46 323i
ZF5HP19 problems after replacing reverse drum. YES, I searched first.

Very interesting thread! Just read the whole thing! Im kinda having the same problem(reverse out) + loud bang in d2. Noticed though when i put it in D normal it just drives normally as if second is fine. Any ideas?! Also did you ever solve the problem you had above?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
AlecSE46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 01:06 AM   #8
AlecSE46
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Miami
Posts: 228
My Ride: BMW E46 323i
ZF5HP19 problems after replacing reverse drum. YES, I searched first.

Forgot to mention i have a GM tranny not sure if that makes a ton difference or not.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
AlecSE46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 10:24 AM   #9
lszlszx
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Socal
Posts: 4,892
My Ride: 328i, XC70
Check out the no-reverse thread on top of the page!
__________________
lszlszx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 12:42 AM   #10
wildlife-lover
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Kalamazoo Michigan
Posts: 23
My Ride: 330i zhp
Did you find what was wrong with it??

Sent from my C5170 using BimmerApp mobile app
wildlife-lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 02:40 AM   #11
Stickbuilder
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Nashville TN/Central FL.
Posts: 1,400
My Ride: Touring, and others
Sounds like there is no modulation on the 3rd gear apply clutch. Did you have the valve body apart or did you just remove it as a unit? I'd bet there is a stuck ball in the valve body.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
[/SIGPIC]I'm fluent in 3 languages:

English
Sarcasm
Profanity
Stickbuilder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2014, 01:19 PM   #12
winky429
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Liberty Boro PA
Posts: 3
My Ride: 03 avalanche & 80vet
same thing

I bought a 2002 325I recently . bought it to flip. pulled trans just replaced drum have same issue ... 1/2 shift normal bang for 3rd then cel & limp mode what did you ever come up with as fix for this issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by F&N Repairs View Post
Greetings all!


TL;DR - came to shop with no reverse, replaced the drum ONLY, now has several codes and goes into limp after trying for 3rd gear. Also replaced a rectangular section sealing ring with silicon because my boss and the customer have less knowledge than money they're willing to spend. Cannot diagnose, need help!


Let me preface by saying that I'm not a BMW owner, I'm a mechanic with recent BMW woes. That being said, We have a 2000 323i here at the shop that has me pulling my hair out at this point. It came in with a complaint of no reverse. We dropped the pan and found pieces of the 'D' drum sitting in oil that looked like it came out of my Cummins. I recommended removing the trans, performing a full overhaul (all new bearings, seals, o-rings, clutch packs, the whole pizza box), and replacing the broken clutch drum. The customer didn't want to spend any money and the boss didn't want to let the job walk away so they settled on replacing just the broken drum and the four o-rings for the pistons that apply the clutches. Transmission came out without issue. After draining, I opened it up on the bench, removed the filter and set it aside to re-use (sigh....). Valve body came off all together, only removed the ~21 larger-head bolts. Removed the two plastic fluid passages (yellow pieces between VB and front pump) intact, as well as the spring-loaded metal piece and spring from the pump. Pulled the pump off and thoroughly cleaned everything as it came out. I swapped all the old parts from the old drum to the new (with new o-rings on the pistons) and started re-assembly. Everything was going fine until I get to the shaft that runs from the 'A' and 'E' clutch up into the torque converter. On this shaft, there are two rectangular section sealing rings, and one o-ring. I noticed that the foremost rectangular section ring (smaller diameter of the two) was torn and misshapen. This ring is only available as part of the master overhaul kit so again I recommend a full rebuild and am denied. Now, I'm not proud of this next part, and if the excuse "I just work here/do what I'm told" wasn't good enough for Göring, then it's probably not good enough for me either, but, we filled the groove with RTV silicone (high temp), and let 'er cure overnight. Now I'm sure many of you are immediately going to default to this being my problem, but hear me out first. Fast forward to trans re-installation, and fluid fill. We filled the trans through the 8mm hex plug on the left rear corner of the trans, just above the oil pan. Added fluid until it dripped out, started engine, shifted through all positions 4 times and then refilled again while running in park. Trans took a total of ~8/9 quarts, which sounds good to me because total capacity is 9.30qts, but you can never really completely empty the torque converter. When we test drive the car, it now has beautiful reverse. When we drive it down the highway, it shifts 1-2 no problem, then bangs HARD when it tries for 3rd (had all forward gears beforehand). CEL and transmission (!) icon come on and it goes into (i think) a limp mode where it seems to be stuck in 4th or 5th gear, max speed of ~15mph, engine revs all the way up, a la badly slipping clutch. Turn the car off and let it sit for ten minutes and everything is fine again...until 3rd gear. We pulled codes, cleared codes, reset adaptations, disconnected battery, all several times. The condition repeats itself every time.

Now...my first thought was the seal that we should've replaced, BUT, the codes suggest an electrical issue:
83 - EGS ECU internal fault (= P1893, P1894, P1895 i think)
59 - Stall monitering (??)
53 - Gear monitering 3, incorrect ratio (P0733?)
54 - Gear monitering 4, incorrect ratio (P0734?)
49 - Gear monitering (??)
Also have two codes in the ECU for an evap leak and a coolant/tstat issue.
Codes were pulled/cleared etc. with a Snap-On Modis. Also, clutch-brake application chart shows that A, B, C, D, low sprag, and G clutches are all used at least once between P, R, N, D-1, and D-2. E clutch does not engage until 4th and 5th gear. F clutch at 3rd, and for 4th and 5th. So maybe my problem has to do with F clutch? Since everything else seems to work until F clutch applies (or tries to). Now I don't have a fluid flow diagram for this tranny, but from everything I do have, it seems that the rectangular section ring that is now a home made silicon o-ring is separate enough from my problem that I should at least look elsewhere first? I guess what I really need to know is what two fluid passages does this sealing ring separate? If anyone has the exploded view handy, the piece in question is '71.020'.

Final notes, we have been searching and reading everything on the internet. This forum and bimmerfest have been extremely helpful, so we decided to post here after trying everything we could think of/was suggested to us. Hopefully somewhere out there is a ZF god that has actually read all of my ramblings and is about to drop some knowledge on me. Here's hoping! Many thanks to all who took the time to read this!! I'll be checking back and updating through the end of this fiasco.



Warning: PDF! ZF5HP19 spare parts catalog URL:
http://www.zf.com/media/media/docume...cars/5HP19.pdf_a_
_nr_
winky429 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2014, 11:44 AM   #13
BMWCaptain
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: TEXAS - Where I give Real World advice and don't just criticize others. People here need to RESPECT other's opinions!
Posts: 1,687
My Ride: 03 325iT SportWagon
Any update on what fixed this problem?
__________________
Founding Member of the Club of Dangerous Fanatics

Engine swap, HG, tranny swap, GM & ZF tranny rebuilds, shocks, struts, brakes, WPs, Thermostats, belts, tensioners, fuel pumps, radiators, window regs, hoses, PS pump, Spark Plugs, VCGs, coils, fuel filters, CVVs, VANOS seals, rack, LCABs, Exp. Tanks, OFHGs, RCABs, OP, boots, ABS, GUIDOs, starter, A/C, DISA, Diff, SAP

Ultra Premium Grand 10 Star+ Super Duper BMW-pedic Sport Plus +++
BMWCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
2000, reverse, zf, zf5, zf5hp19

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use