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Old 02-18-2014, 08:09 PM   #1
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M62Tu Throttle Body

I have heard of using a M62Tu throttle body on an M54. Anyone hear of on being used on an ESS twinscrew car?

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Old 02-18-2014, 08:45 PM   #2
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Is M62 the 540 throttle body?
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:47 PM   #3
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:58 PM   #4
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yes, I made an adapter plate and have it on my TS3+. The car is still being tuned though. The car drives and runs, but I have stalling issues from take off. IT seems to be a common occurence on the TS3. So I han having that worked out. Changing the cam position sensors and hopefully be tween this, and the new current tune, I will be good. I have a camshaft code and the car dumps too much fuel at idle and take off. The car is a beast once its rolling tho...
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:00 PM   #5
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It will be dyno'ed upon completion.....whenever that is...smh
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:13 AM   #6
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:21 AM   #7
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Why you would do this? Is your OEM one broken?
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:52 AM   #8
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I was going from 2.5l to 3.0l and needed a new tb anyway. But I am thinking I will do an m54b30 tb.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:12 AM   #9
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why wouldn't you if you have a twinscrew supercharger. Im waiting to get the car dyno'ed, but I couldnt imagine not making a significant gain in HP. As long as your entire intake system caries the same diameter as the TB (about 89mm or 3.5 inches) then you should see an increase. It is one of the oldest tricks of american muscle car HP. The more air the car ingests, the more air the supercharger compresses.

Is there a reason you would believe this would not be the case on this engine?
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:23 PM   #10
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why wouldn't you if you have a twinscrew supercharger. Im waiting to get the car dyno'ed, but I couldnt imagine not making a significant gain in HP. As long as your entire intake system caries the same diameter as the TB (about 89mm or 3.5 inches) then you should see an increase. It is one of the oldest tricks of american muscle car HP. The more air the car ingests, the more air the supercharger compresses.

Is there a reason you would believe this would not be the case on this engine?
Changing TBs would require changing the PID values in the DME. Not easily done remotely, so you're looking at on-site tuning IF the tuner understands how to re-write the DBW control strategy. Most just know how to adjust the target position, but leave the PID values alone.

I don't think the extra 5hp is worth the hassle.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:46 PM   #11
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Is this procedure required when running an m54b30 and 3.0 tb by a dme from an m54b25? Other than a normal retune?

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Old 02-21-2014, 04:55 PM   #12
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Changing TBs would require changing the PID values in the DME.
Are you sure that is necessary? (the tune I mean)

I mean I know there is an active TB control (also used by dtc etc), but the feedback for actively controlling the TB is probably derived from sensors (maybe maf) and is probably a bit fuzzy logic.
I mean otherwise it also could not cope with a slightly clogged airfilter or so, as that effect is the same as a smaller TB.
As long as the motorgain/resisance and feedback (probably a potentiometer?) have the same value...

I don't know if's gonna make that much of a difference on a FI car. I have thought about buying a used tb on ebay and start experimenting . But first I want a wideband afr meter before I do that (just to be safe)

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yes, I made an adapter plate and have it on my TS3+.
Do you have a picture or design of that plate? (I run a ESS TS setup too)
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:17 PM   #13
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Are you sure that is necessary? (the tune I mean)

I mean I know there is an active TB control (also used by dtc etc), but the feedback for actively controlling the TB is probably derived from sensors (maybe maf) and is probably a bit fuzzy logic.
I mean otherwise it also could not cope with a slightly clogged airfilter or so, as that effect is the same as a smaller TB.
As long as the motorgain/resisance and feedback (probably a potentiometer?) have the same value...

I don't know if's gonna make that much of a difference on a FI car. I have thought about buying a used tb on ebay and start experimenting . But first I want a wideband afr meter before I do that (just to be safe)
You are confusing airflow through the engine, with control of the TB blade. They are 2 completely different topics.

What will happen if the TB control software doesn't match the hardware is that the throttle blade will oscillate back and forth while searching for the target position. This will create engine surging, even at constant accelerator pedal position. Also, the effect is greater at low throttle openings, because there is such a huge change in airflow in relation to changes in throttle blade angle. For example, the change in airflow from 50% TPS to 100% TPS may only be a 20% increase in mass-flow.

The other thing to consider is that the TB can move at different rates, measured in degrees per second per second. Depending on the requested rate of change, the damping required will be different. The larger the TB blade, the more torque required to move it at low throttle angles due to airflow resistance. So the damping effect is compounded with the larger TB.

For those that are interested in learning more, Motec has some great documentation describing the process they go through to characterize DBW TB for use with their stand-alone ECUs. At one point they would only supply DBW licences to users that either sent in their Throttle Pedal and Throttle Body, or used already calibrated hardware. The process, as I understand it, took a few days to complete.
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Old 02-21-2014, 06:43 PM   #14
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I'm betting that both the TB's might be technically the same (the inside mechanism, electric motor spec and potentiometer).
I think the computer doesn't steer the TB to a specific set point and then expect (as in assume and dont react with feedback) the engine to behave a certain way. An engine is much to uncontrollable and dependent on enviremental parameters. If it needs to be corrected it will do so on basis of (somewhat) fuzzy logic.

I think it will work.

You're right of course when the motor/potentiometer assembly would be totally different, but I think they are mostly the same unit with the same controlspecs, and that the slight increase in size is comparable to the effect of a different filter or the temperature of the fuel.
It is something I would dare to experiment with without software tuning.

That motec needs a lot of tinkering I can understand; that is a generic setup. Not every TB (and gas pedal) is the same (electrically).
But I think in this case they will be (same brand, same era; that often means same tech), so the target position will be the same.
Opening a m62tu unit (or measuring if it is potentiometer controlled) will answer that (i don't think it's controlled by a logic position decoder).
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Old 02-22-2014, 06:27 AM   #15
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So can 2.5 software control a 3.0 tb or does the PID & DBW values need modification?

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Old 02-22-2014, 07:44 AM   #16
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So can 2.5 software control a 3.0 tb or does the PID & DBW values need modification?

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Usually when one changes engines like this, they need to get the 3.0 DME tune for the different fuel injectors. The DBW TB characterization is part of that tune.

If you use the M54B30 TB, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you use the 540 TB, you might find yourself chasing drivability issues....and like most inexperienced tuners, blaming it on fuel/ignition values. That's not to say the 540TB wouldn't work without issue, but I don't know for certain that it will, and I would think that eliminating variables would be smart at this point.

If you really want to use the 540 TB, I would look at adding it after the engine and tune is up and running without issues using the M54B30 TB. That way you have a point of reference, and know what real affect the change has.

I've never regretted keeping things simple....
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:22 AM   #17
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I'm betting that both the TB's might be technically the same (the inside mechanism, electric motor spec and potentiometer).
I think the computer doesn't steer the TB to a specific set point and then expect (as in assume and dont react with feedback) the engine to behave a certain way. An engine is much to uncontrollable and dependent on enviremental parameters. If it needs to be corrected it will do so on basis of (somewhat) fuzzy logic.
The fuzzy logic is there, but it only works well if the assumptions are close to reality.
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Old 02-22-2014, 10:45 AM   #18
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I'm betting that the somewhat larger TB won't interact tht much with those assumptions. As I said: the engine doesn't spint out of control with an aftermarket airfilter or somewhat colder fuel in the tank or so. The difference of that somewhat larger TB is in the same league. Don't expect 50hp more
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Old 02-22-2014, 12:30 PM   #19
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I'm betting that the somewhat larger TB won't interact tht much with those assumptions. As I said: the engine doesn't spint out of control with an aftermarket airfilter or somewhat colder fuel in the tank or so. The difference of that somewhat larger TB is in the same league. Don't expect 50hp more
I don't know if I agree. WOT should be okay, but I expect part-throttle behavior to not be quite right since it will be flowing more at part throttle than the DME expects. Should be able to adapt to it, especially if the MAF is reading properly. The DME does adjust the fuel injection pulses based on temperature IIRC.

From what I've been reading, the 540 TB is 80mm diameter, so that'll flow even more than the Dinan TB if it fits.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:00 PM   #20
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I think the dme doesn't do a thing on TB position, in terms of engine control (we're not talking about alpha-n tuning here).
For that it has a Maf.

There's only one way to find out
That's what I'm saying all along. I mean, whats the risk? If throttle control is bad or not what you'd expect, just stop the car. A used m62tu TB costs $40 or so on ebay.
The only thing you should have is the afr meter (as I said earlier). If the dme gets all confused and mixture is bad, that's where you'll see it. (I think every tuned car should have an afr monitor, just to be safe )
The only thing is that you spend time on making an adapter ring, but that's why it's called a hobby
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