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Old 09-30-2013, 08:14 AM   #61
Goughie
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Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
Are you really this stupid? I refuse to believe you can operate a computer and still be this dense
Panties in a bunch? Relax, I'm just liking my Governmental system at this precise moment over yours and gently ribbing you for it!
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:00 AM   #62
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Panties in a bunch? Relax, I'm just liking my Governmental system at this precise moment over yours and gently ribbing you for it!
Pay no attention to AoG. He believes government is the root of all problems. Without government people would be forced to work together for the benefit of mankind. What a liberal douche.

AoG would be alittle jealous of your country if he had ever been.
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Old 09-30-2013, 09:02 AM   #63
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Panties in a bunch? Relax, I'm just liking my Governmental system at this precise moment over yours and gently ribbing you for it!
AOG has to insult someone in caps or he cant masturbate successfully.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:54 AM   #64
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So what has happened to "conservatives" vaunted respect for order, process, precedent, the American people and the Constitution?

So they're against the ACA? Fine. So you then elect enough members to Congress that agree with that platform, propose your own legislation to address America's health care problems, pass it, and have your GOP POTUS sign it into law. If there are some Constitutional questions regarding that new law, it goes before the SCOTUS for their review. If the Dems don't like it, then they can campaign against it in the next elections and if the American people agree, they will in due course then vote in enough Congressmen, Senators and a POTUS to change that law.

However, the GOP/TP's current tactic of essentially holding the U.S. Government and even economy hostage unless their views are acceded to actually reveals a deep disdain and disrespect for both the Constitutional process and the American people. Obamacare went through ALL these Constitutional procedural steps and prevailed in all instances.

It was passed by the duly elected Congress, signed into law by the duly elected POTUS, went before the SCOTUS for Constitutional review where it prevailed. Then, during the 2012 election season, one side's major campaign plank was the explicit repeal of ACA. That side lost not only the POTUS seat, but also a significant number of House and Senate seats in a clear citizen rebuke of that campaign plank.

Now, even given all that, a rump minority of right wing radicals is threatening to hold both our very Government's operations or even our economy hostage -- to do violence against our system and livelihood -- unless their demands are met. This usurpation of our Constitutional processes and our citizen's own views as duly reflected through their elected officials represents a little more than a desperate gambit to impose their own ideological views upon our society, views that have not had sufficient resonance to prevail in our normal Constitutional processes.

The Congress has spoken, the President has spoken, the Courts have spoken and through the 2012 election, the people have once again spoken regarding ACA and in all instances, it has been to pass, uphold and implement it. Even current polling indicates that.

So then, why is today's radical right (I cease to call them "conservatives" for they are anything but with these tactics) continue to hold our regular Constitutional processes that have served us for well over 200 years, and the will of the people as expressed by both elections and through their representatives in contempt, disdain and disregard over their own ideological demands?
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Old 09-30-2013, 11:58 AM   #65
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So what has happened to "conservatives" vaunted respect for order, process, precedent, the American people and the Constitution?

So they're against the ACA? Fine. So you then elect enough members to Congress that agree with that platform, propose your own legislation to address America's health care problems, pass it, and have your GOP POTUS sign it into law. If there are some Constitutional questions regarding that new law, it goes before the SCOTUS for their review. If the Dems don't like it, then they can campaign against it in the next elections and if the American people agree, they will in due course then vote in enough Congressmen, Senators and a POTUS to change that law.

However, the GOP/TP's current tactic of essentially holding the U.S. Government and even economy hostage unless their views are acceded to actually reveals a deep disdain and disrespect for both the Constitutional process and the American people. Obamacare went through ALL these Constitutional procedural steps and prevailed in all instances.

It was passed by the duly elected Congress, signed into law by the duly elected POTUS, went before the SCOTUS for Constitutional review where it prevailed. Then, during the 2012 election season, one side's major campaign plank was the explicit repeal of ACA. That side lost not only the POTUS seat, but also a significant number of House and Senate seats in a clear citizen rebuke of that campaign plank.

Now, even given all that, a rump minority of right wing radicals is threatening to hold both our very Government's operations or even our economy hostage -- to do violence against our system and livelihood -- unless their demands are met. This usurpation of our Constitutional processes and our citizen's own views as duly reflected through their elected officials represents a little more than a desperate gambit to impose their own ideological views upon our society, views that have not had sufficient resonance to prevail in our normal Constitutional processes.

The Congress has spoken, the President has spoken, the Courts have spoken and through the 2012 election, the people have once again spoken regarding ACA and in all instances, it has been to pass, uphold and implement it. Even current polling indicates that.

So then, why is today's radical right (I cease to call them "conservatives" for they are anything but with these tactics) continue to hold our regular Constitutional processes that have served us for well over 200 years, and the will of the people as expressed by both elections and through their representatives in contempt, disdain and disregard over their own ideological demands?
Balance of powers. This problem will go away if the Dems simply defund Obamacare.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:03 PM   #66
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There's a better way to solve that problem.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:15 PM   #67
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Balance of powers. This problem will go away if the Dems simply defund Obamacare.
Wouldn't this simply be acceding to what are essentially hostage demands -- do our bidding our we do violence to either the government and/or our whole economy?

How are the GOP/TP tactics as this point this little better than a rank street robbery: "All you have to do to not get shot in the head (shut down Gov, default on debt) is to do as I say (defund Obamacare)?

Would acceding to these extortionist demands simply be condoning them and consigning us (all sides) to similar such distortions of the Constitutional process into the future? What about the concept of not negotiating with terrorists?

Didn't the GOP/TP have more than ample opportunity to offer their own health care views and options through normal Constitutional processes that I outlined above and yet, in all instances, there views were duly rejected?

If the GOP/TP's views on this are in fact so well supported by the American people, then why have they constantly been rebuffed by all the myriad of normal Constititutional processes they have available to them? Or even in current polls reflecting a deep disapproval of GOP/TP tactics regarding ACA, even amongst anti-ACA citizens?

Again, if the GOP/TP has better ideas they wish to present to the American people for their support, then fine, please do so. Propose better bills and laws and get them passed, signed into law, upheld by our courts and duly implemented as a reflection of the wishes of the American people as voiced through our Constitutional processes.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:18 PM   #68
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So you then elect enough members to Congress that agree with that platform...
Rhumb, perhaps you were out of the country in 2010, but you should google the results of the 2010 election that year and do a head-count of the House of Representatives.

Or are you one of those who thinks Obama's re-election is a "mandate" but the change of power in the House isn't a mandate? If so, continue crying foul when the "evil" GOP plays the hand they have while the "benevolent" Dems do the exact same thing. If you actually know what the Constitution says, you would understand why this is happening this way.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:36 PM   #69
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Fair enough, so the House added some more GOP/TP members in 2010. They were certainly welcome and able to present legislation at that, or any other time for that matter, to alter, repeal, amend or in any way reflect their own views and policies regarding ACA or health care in general. They either didn't or did not prevail and thus, ACA remains the due law of the land.

Certainly the 2012 elections represent a larger, more current and more significant referendum on the ACA as both sides campaigned vigorously and loudly on that very issue. Indeed, it was perhaps the GOP's foremost campaign platform plank across their slate of candidates. We saw how that all turned out, the GOP lost resoundingly on all fronts: House, Senate and Presidency.

I am quite clear on what the Constitution says and the ACA has already been run through the Constitutional processes/ringer numerous times only to duly prevail as the law of the land. I would consider the GOP/TP's current tactics as a subversion of those Constitutional processes that they are executing out of desperation -- because they have failed resoundingly in all the other Constitutional processes re: ACA -- and because, as in the 2012 elections, they have imploded, ideologically, to a bunkered and distorted world-view on what they American people want. In 2012, it was "skewed polling" and now it's the belief that most Americans want ACA's implementation signifcantly hindered or halted (they don't, certainly not by means of shuttering our government or worse, collapsing our economy through debt default).

Regardless of whether one may consider the results of one election or another a "mandate" or any other descriptive, one is still left with whatever numbers either side may have in Congress or who sits at 1600 Penn. Ave. and thus, what the results of the ascribed Constitutional legislative processes are. Quite clearly, as a reflection of the American people's views in 2012 -- those that are in force today -- the GOP's ideas and representatives did not prevail in sufficient numbers to either repeal or otherwise change the ACA other then resort to what is nothing more than simple legislative terrorism.

Rather, shouldn't the GOP be focusing on developing the policies and messages that will appeal to a sufficient number of our citizens in 2014 and 2016 to allow them to effectuate the legislative changes they desire through the normal, Constitutional legislative process rather than resort to this quasi-Constitutional hostage taking?

Last edited by Rhumb; 09-30-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:00 PM   #70
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Federal Shut down, will it happen?

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Rhumb, perhaps you were out of the country in 2010, but you should google the results of the 2010 election that year and do a head-count of the House of Representatives.

Or are you one of those who thinks Obama's re-election is a "mandate" but the change of power in the House isn't a mandate? If so, continue crying foul when the "evil" GOP plays the hand they have while the "benevolent" Dems do the exact same thing. If you actually know what the Constitution says, you would understand why this is happening this way.
Exactly.




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Old 09-30-2013, 01:03 PM   #71
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Republicans won in 2010 on a platform of JOBS.


Just another GOP lie.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 09-30-2013, 01:51 PM   #72
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Re: Federal Shut down, will it happen?

It's not a tax.

Well, I guess you could call it a tax.


Ok yeah you got us....it's a tax. Too late now b!tches!



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Old 09-30-2013, 02:18 PM   #73
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Re: Federal Shut down, will it happen?

Rhumb

If you are as familiar with the Constitution as you say, then you are well aware that any law passed by a previous Congress can be repealed by the current Congress as that is their prerogative.

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Old 09-30-2013, 02:45 PM   #74
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Correct.

Then repeal ACA up and up. Should the GOP make a far better case for their ideas and policies for 2014/16 and on the basis of that elect sufficient majorities in Congress and the desk at 1600 Penn. Ave., then please do just that, absolutely.

While I generally support ACA -- a good market-oriented health care reform grown from conservative ideological soil -- and would regret its repeal, certainly in lack of an alternative plan, I would fully respect that process and event.

I cannot say the same for the GOP/TP's current hostage-taking/extortionist approach, which is not deserving either respect or countenance regardless of motivation.
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Old 09-30-2013, 02:56 PM   #75
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Members of the US Military won't be paid.
Negative, sir.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...look-like?lite

The military's 1.4 million active duty personnel would stay on duty, but their paychecks could be delayed. About half of the Defense Department's civilian employees could be furloughed. The House Saturday passed a measure that would ensure military personal would continue to be paid, something that is likely to pass the Senate even in the event of a shutdown.
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:30 PM   #76
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Today the news says that the military will receive iou's.
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If you ever want to see what I mean by the arbitrariness of categories, check the situation of polarized politics. The next time a Martian visits earth, try to explain to him to why those who favor allowing capital punishment also oppose the elimination of a fetus in the mother's womb.
Congratulations.
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Old 09-30-2013, 03:43 PM   #77
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Negative, sir.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...look-like?lite

The military's 1.4 million active duty personnel would stay on duty, but their paychecks could be delayed. About half of the Defense Department's civilian employees could be furloughed. The House Saturday passed a measure that would ensure military personal would continue to be paid, something that is likely to pass the Senate even in the event of a shutdown.
i.e., it hasn't passed, which means my statement is still technically correct
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:00 PM   #78
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i.e., it hasn't passed, which means my statement is still technically correct
Or your statement isn't technically correct. Are you a glass half empty or glass half full kind of guy?
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:22 PM   #79
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Correct.

While I generally support ACA -- a good market-oriented health care reform grown from conservative ideological soil...
Nice try, slick. To the minor extent it was "grown from conservative ideological soil" the concept of the individual mandate was killed with Round-Up and fire before ever being consider seriously by the GOP. The Dems own this monstrosity, period.

And yes, ACA is a monstrosity - a fact that was knowable before it was passed (ok, maybe not since no one was allowed to read it) and is knowable right now if you bother reading anything about its disastrous implementation.

The only defenses you and other ACA fans will be able to offer will be the usual, well it was worth a try, and it wouldn't have failed it those evil capitalists didn't cut everyone back to 29.5 hours (as if no one could see THAT coming!), or if the insurance companies/doctors/hospitals/medical device manufacturers hadn't insisted on making profits (shame on them), or if those 24-yr-olds had signed up for insurance they didn't want or need (didn't see that coming either?), or if the GOP - while controlling only the House - hadn't fought so hard and made us mess up, or blah, blah, but at least we tried....

Yes, you go on feeling good about your compassionate "try" that will ultimately give the 1% the best medical system in the world (because only they can afford direct payment to the doctors who were good enough and smart enough to go underground) and the other 99% of us the worst medical system in the modernized world because, Obamacare.
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:23 PM   #80
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Or your statement isn't technically correct. Are you a glass half empty or glass half full kind of guy?
Your statement is correct based on an assumption that has not come to fruition. My statement is correct based on the present situation.


Learn the difference.
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