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Old 12-22-2013, 07:57 PM   #41
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It still has some odd interactions with SSG. I have to figure out how to get shift spark retard working.
It won't be just spark.

The signal you are looking for is on the CAN bus, and it's a torque reduction request. (same as what DSC does)
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Old 12-22-2013, 08:01 PM   #42
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Err, yes, that.

That's what I meant, but I called it shift spark retard instead.

But, in essence, yes, without that, it's all sorts of odd.

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Old 12-22-2013, 11:49 PM   #43
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Err, yes, that.

That's what I meant, but I called it shift spark retard instead.

But, in essence, yes, without that, it's all sorts of odd.

-Matt
The problem with Pro EFI, and this is a problem that most other stand alone ECU's have as well, is that a user can't define the CAN messages received, and what function they perform. You will probably need to get Pro-EFI directly involved to have a "shift-cut" defined by a CAN input.

You can do this manually with Motec for example, provided you know the CAN info, but THAT may be the most difficult part of the solution.
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:30 AM   #44
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Not sure if this will help or not, but....

On wds signal F_td (engine speed) going into the gs30 is shown going to the obd connector, it is in fact engine speed coming from the dme. Apparently it is for 'redundancy purposes', but I know (don't ask how) that if it is not connected, the gs30 doesn't shift well at all. From memory, up shift in particular (?)

It goes from pin 17 of the dme, to the obd port, then to pin 9 of the gs30.

Somewhere in wds there is a description of its signal, this one is not can related, but originates from the cam sensor, can't remember if it's processed or not, and I have zero experience with the pro efi !!!



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Old 12-29-2013, 10:48 AM   #45
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Dave,

Thanks for the info. In this case, the GS30 and the DME are still connected together. The ProEFI harness re-routes the ignition and fuel injector outputs to the ProEFI, and splits the Crank, Cam, Knock Sensor, IAT, and MAF signals to both units. FYI, RPM will come from Crank Position sensor.

Yes, I'm well aware of the redundancy issues.

On the 24th I moved the CAN1 (The primary CAN connection for use with programming & logging) into the inside of my car. That required de-pinning 3 pins, and cut / resplicing 3 more.

I also wired up the CAN Gauge I have, which is on CAN2. CAN2, in newer apps, is also shared by the factory computers. (ie BMW, Nissan, Porsche, etc)

After wiring it up, it worked fine for a few minutes, but then the DME freaked out and deicded that the PT-CAN bus was unhappy, and that the EGS (GS30) communications was screwed...So, when I came to a stop after going up a hill, it went into neutral, and wouldn't go into gear.

Mind you, the DME has a PRIVATE BUS for just the EGS unit. So it was getting all of that info just fine, but it looks like if all avaiable sources of information aren't right, it throws a fit and says game over.

Thankfully, I simply removed the 120 ohm resistor I added between CAN2 High and CAN2 Low, and disconnected the gauge itself, and it went back to normal operation.


In other news, the car runs much better now that 5 degrees of timing isn't being pulled everywhere - seems there is a bug in the idle detection algorithm, and the ProEFI thought I was constantly in idle state, so once it got higher then the desired idle, it was pulling the max spark it was allowed, which was 5 degrees.

Worked on DeltaTPS a bit, now the shifts are a little better in that they're not so jarring, but still have the 'waviness' as a result of the modulation of clutch / throttle by the DME during the shift, until a solution is figured out regarding torque reduction.

I should have my V3 firmware soon, Garth's laptop died on him and that set him back quite some time, as it seems Windows 8.1 is a mess with the ProEFI stuff. He recently got another Windows 7 Pro laptop, and is trying to catch up.

Also, I had to move the UEGO harness a bit, as it was touching the downpipe. Thankfully it looks like it just singed the loom a bit, didn't actually mess up the sheathing itself, which is good.

Once I get back to where Lightroom is, I will finally get my install pictures up.
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Old 12-29-2013, 10:53 PM   #46
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Thankfully, I simply removed the 120 ohm resistor I added between CAN2 High and CAN2 Low, and disconnected the gauge itself, and it went back to normal operation.
I'm confused why that resistor was inserted, as there are already 2 in the OEM CAN bus. In theory, you should be able to insert as many CAN devices as you want to the OEM Bus without adding any more. Maybe try inserting the gauge by itself?

Engine RPM is a pulse signal on the OBD2 connector. It is also a CAN signal sent on both Buses off the DME, as well as used by the LIN Bus. (Called K-bus by BMW)

The "magic" of the 2 ECU options (Motec M150, Syvecs S8) for the R35 Nissan GTR is that they act like the OEM ECU on the CAN Buses. I wonder how much CAN integration the Pro-EFI offers....
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Old 12-29-2013, 11:07 PM   #47
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I asked on a supra forum which has more proefi info then most, and Garth, and both sources thought the 120 ohm resistor was always necessary.

I thought the same as you, Adam.

Re: GTR, that's pretty slick. I know the ProEFI's outputs are compatibe with the Racepack display, but I doubt they're outputting enough to be a full replacement on a GTR. Looks like it's similar patch-harness style. Interestingly, The Nissan applications run CAN1 @ 500k, and CAN2 clearly says CAN Gauge.

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Old 12-30-2013, 02:02 AM   #48
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I asked on a supra forum which has more proefi info then most, and Garth, and both sources thought the 120 ohm resistor was always necessary.
I often wonder how many people know why the resistors are required in the first place?

Devices connected to the bus are designed to see a certain terminated impedance. (What they are driving) The bus impedance varies based on wire used, and length, but by adding resistors to each end of the Bus, a stabilized load is provided. It is possible that a CAN device has an improper output impedance, (Or "different" if the manufacturer doesn't want to held to the standard) and that another resistor may need to be added into the bus where the device connects.

If it was a peer to peer network, there would be no need for termination resistors, but because the network is open, and shared between multiple devices, it needs the resistors.

Edit: Those familiar with Innovate Motorsports "Log Chain" concept, will recognize the termination plug. It's actually a CAN Bus with a termination resistor on each end of the bus.

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Old 12-30-2013, 01:41 PM   #49
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Indeed, and that's what made me question the necessity in the first place.

Haven't tried hooking it up again yet. Someone mentioned that the v3 firmware didn't support the gauge anyway, so it may be useful for a very short time, lol.

The Motec M1 looks quite cool, but is $$$ for what I want. Looks like the M130 or M150 for complete replacement (ie with LIN bus as you mentioned earlier). Looks like similar strategies are used (ie VE models) but with a lot more flexibility on the CAN side. It also looks to be more a pain in the butt to calibrate. I need to know the specific density of the fuel? That seems odd to me.

Wow, M1 Tune is a TINY program compared to the ProEFI software.

If only my budget was unlimited LOL.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:15 PM   #50
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Indeed, and that's what made me question the necessity in the first place.

Haven't tried hooking it up again yet. Someone mentioned that the v3 firmware didn't support the gauge anyway, so it may be useful for a very short time, lol.

The Motec M1 looks quite cool, but is $$$ for what I want. Looks like the M130 or M150 for complete replacement (ie with LIN bus as you mentioned earlier). Looks like similar strategies are used (ie VE models) but with a lot more flexibility on the CAN side. It also looks to be more a pain in the butt to calibrate. I need to know the specific density of the fuel? That seems odd to me.

Wow, M1 Tune is a TINY program compared to the ProEFI software.

If only my budget was unlimited LOL.
Most people don't understand what you get when you buy a Motec product. And indeed, for many people, they don't need all the features that Motec spends an enormous amount of time creating. (Thus the price)

A simple way to summarize needs would be in 3 steps:

1.) Need hardware to run an engine

2.) Need hardware, and the ability to change operating parameters

3.) Need hardware, the ability to change operating parameters, and also data analysis to further develop the chassis and/or driver.

Most people looking for a stand alone ECU just need the first step. So all the other stuff, which has significant development cost, has no value to them.

What M1 does, is place someone in an environment with infinite tools. This can be overwhelming, and non productive, as you could spend infinite time just trying to figure out what is possible. Where other ECUs give you a hammer, a screwdriver, and a drill, and you know what you can do....which can be more productive to some.

Figuring out this CAN/LIN stuff is probably going to be more expensive and time consuming, than what most people spend setting up an entire stand alone ECU system. The only other parties I know of that go down this path are the ECU companies themselves, looking to create a PNP setup for a specific power train. (Like the GTR, or Porsche TT, etc)
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Old 12-30-2013, 10:32 PM   #51
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Figuring out this CAN/LIN stuff is probably going to be more expensive and time consuming, than what most people spend setting up an entire stand alone ECU system. The only other parties I know of that go down this path are the ECU companies themselves, looking to create a PNP setup for a specific power train. (Like the GTR, or Porsche TT, etc)
So, this is your eventual goal, to run something M1 based? I think you said something of the sort in your other thread. That will be interesting.

As for me, option 2 + adding in specific CAN inputs and outputs would cut it. Or rig up something on the CAN bus converting to specific IO ports on the ProEFI. I have not heard how they handle SMG torque reduction on the M3s yet, Garth has not done an SMG car yet.

The ability to drive the stock cluster, talk to DSC, etc, would be great, but with the need to have OBD II, I'd rather let the DME do most of the hard work of coordinating things, and use the standalone in a more limited fashion. This does have some downsides, of course.

Idle control is not nearly as good as it could be. It's good, but has some issues with it wanting to go above 1000 if the AC clutch is cycling on and off.

Aside from that, and the shifting issues, I'm fairly happy so far with ProEFI. Cranking still needs some work trying to figure out the correct parameters to get it to start quickly, which it *can* do if you didn't complete startup right..ie, if you put it into run too early from start...if you then immediately retry a start, it fires up in about the same time as the stock DME. The CAN controlled fuel pump probably complicates this.

Support on a new platform does leave something to be desired. If I were to do things again, I'd buy a brand-new setup, not a used one, as that's going to cause you trouble.

I'm trying to figure out who I will have create the new harness later down the line. I'd basically send them what I have, have the DME side re-done, run better wire for my added items, and put new loom on it.
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:59 AM   #52
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So, this is your eventual goal, to run something M1 based? I think you said something of the sort in your other thread. That will be interesting.

As for me, option 2 + adding in specific CAN inputs and outputs would cut it. Or rig up something on the CAN bus converting to specific IO ports on the ProEFI. I have not heard how they handle SMG torque reduction on the M3s yet, Garth has not done an SMG car yet.

The ability to drive the stock cluster, talk to DSC, etc, would be great, but with the need to have OBD II, I'd rather let the DME do most of the hard work of coordinating things, and use the standalone in a more limited fashion. This does have some downsides, of course.

Idle control is not nearly as good as it could be. It's good, but has some issues with it wanting to go above 1000 if the AC clutch is cycling on and off.

Aside from that, and the shifting issues, I'm fairly happy so far with ProEFI. Cranking still needs some work trying to figure out the correct parameters to get it to start quickly, which it *can* do if you didn't complete startup right..ie, if you put it into run too early from start...if you then immediately retry a start, it fires up in about the same time as the stock DME. The CAN controlled fuel pump probably complicates this.

Support on a new platform does leave something to be desired. If I were to do things again, I'd buy a brand-new setup, not a used one, as that's going to cause you trouble.

I'm trying to figure out who I will have create the new harness later down the line. I'd basically send them what I have, have the DME side re-done, run better wire for my added items, and put new loom on it.
I ordered an M150 last spring...been trying to get up to speed on it since then.

Most aftermarket ECUs have an A/C switch input that you set up to compensate for the compressor coming on at idle. Check your menus.

All the functions you want to do with CAN involved a fair amount of user configuration. Do you have direct access to the CAN input and output templates on the ProEFI? If you want a good example of how it can be done, download the configuration software for any of the Motec Dash units (Free), and look at the CAN config menu. That's just scratching the surface of what the M1 series can do.

About the torque reduction request: I'm not certain if it's done over the CAN Bus, or the LIN bus.(K-Bus) The BMW transmission controllers I've been looking at use both buses to talk to the DME. The only way find out is to monitor both and decode all the traffic being exchanged. (You need a multi channel bus adapter and software program to decode the hex) To confuse things further, there is a torque reduction request coming from the DSC, which also uses 2 buses to talk to the DME.

Headache much?
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:18 PM   #53
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A couple of comments on the BUS architecture in my E46.

The TXD-Bus (D-Bus) has 4 devices connected, plus the OBD2 port. There is also a second TXD-Bus between the DME and Transmission controller.

The CAN-Buses, which there are 2, have a total of 5 devices connected.

The K-Bus has a total of 14 (Fourteen) devices connected.

What I'm getting at, is that everything is interconnected, and not always the source of a message. For example the buttons on the Multi-Function steering wheel are connected to the K-Bus, which sends signals to the Instrument Cluster. The Instrument cluster may then send information to the DME. So the steering wheel buttons are not direct-to-CAN signals the way some may have believed....
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:52 PM   #54
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A couple of comments on the BUS architecture in my E46.

The TXD-Bus (D-Bus) has 4 devices connected, plus the OBD2 port. There is also a second TXD-Bus between the DME and Transmission controller.

The CAN-Buses, which there are 2, have a total of 5 devices connected.

The K-Bus has a total of 14 (Fourteen) devices connected.

What I'm getting at, is that everything is interconnected, and not always the source of a message. For example the buttons on the Multi-Function steering wheel are connected to the K-Bus, which sends signals to the Instrument Cluster. The Instrument cluster may then send information to the DME. So the steering wheel buttons are not direct-to-CAN signals the way some may have believed....
This is true, this is also why BMWs are not as easily susceptible to CAN bus hacking, lol.


The TXD Bus - that's listed as a "diagnostic bus" on the pinout diagrams.
I/K Bus is mostly instrument cluster,radio,air con, lcm, gcm, right?

Where'd you get your list of CAN devices?

On my car, I see there is a private bus between the SSG controller and the DME, and then the other one connects to everything else, including, as you mentioned, the instrument cluster, which I think is one of the locations of the bus resistor. (Or at least is a CAN Gateway)


What are you using to interpret the traffic you're sniffing? The CANKing software just gives me hex or decimal values.

No, there is no direct CAN access from the user side. As I understand it, currently any changes are extremely tedious and time consuming from ProEFI's end.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:00 PM   #55
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Where'd you get your list of CAN devices?

On my car, I see there is a private bus between the SSG controller and the DME, and then the other one connects to everything else, including, as you mentioned, the instrument cluster, which I think is one of the locations of the bus resistor. (Or at least is a CAN Gateway)


What are you using to interpret the traffic you're sniffing? The CANKing software just gives me hex or decimal values.
I do a lot of leg-work. I find most information publicly available for free, you just have to do some digging. So that's where most of my information comes from, good research. (And I bought a copy of BMW WDS 12)

I use 6 sources to work out wiring:
  1. OEM BMW Training documents
  2. WDS Pin-out listings
  3. WDS Wiring schematics (Includes connector #s, and wire color)
  4. WDS Component descriptions (Theres a lot of good info there)
  5. Bentley Manual
  6. A couple of BMW Technicians that I trust to cross-reference stuff with.

Now here's the crappy part: They don't always line up with each other, so you have to decide what is the most likely option. Often I will have to go into a given connector on my car to confirm the wire colour and location, to prove that I have the correct diagram or pin-out listing. The other thing is that the language used to describe things doesn't always make sense. So it IS a bit of a puzzle to get it right.

I've probably got a couple of hundred hrs tracing wiring in the E46 over the years, which has resulted in a nice database. (It's not for sale)

I am not sniffing the CAN Bus yet, but have been researching options. If you want a professional tool, you will pay....

The 2 resistors are in the DSC, and either the DME or Dash depending on the engine type. To be honest, where they are doesn't really matter if you are keeping all the devices, and simply tapping in with a proper CAN device.

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Old 12-31-2013, 09:55 PM   #56
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Mdrobnak,

I am really out of my league here, but before you go further with the ssg side of things, are you aware that ess doesn't offer ts3 on ssg vehicles due to a software issue operating at the power your at. I have asked numerous times what this issue is, but my question remains unanswered, except that "it is a software issue with the ssg".

I feel mine is close to that "software issue", occasionally under full revs, it is like the engine revs out of range/ too quickly during shifts, and the gearbox will go into a minor fault state. I get all gears, but all the shift points are just wrong until I turn off and restart.

I hope this info, though vague, is of some use to you.


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Old 12-31-2013, 10:05 PM   #57
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Mdrobnak,

I am really out of my league here, but before you go further with the ssg side of things, are you aware that ess doesn't offer ts3 on ssg vehicles due to a software issue operating at the power your at. I have asked numerous times what this issue is, but my question remains unanswered, except that "it is a software issue with the ssg".

I feel mine is close to that "software issue", occasionally under full revs, it is like the engine revs out of range/ too quickly during shifts, and the gearbox will go into a minor fault state. I get all gears, but all the shift points are just wrong until I turn off and restart.

I hope this info, though vague, is of some use to you.


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That sounds like the tune is doing stuff which is throwing off torque reduction...

Ie, shift, RPMs flare up, gearbox engages?

That means it's not pulling enough torque during the shift, the same issue I have with the ProEFI.

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Old 12-31-2013, 10:14 PM   #58
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I've probably got a couple of hundred hrs tracing wiring in the E46 over the years, which has resulted in a nice database. (It's not for sale)
Oh, I bet you've got quite a bit of info at this point. That being said, you seem to be the type that wile not necessarily giving it all away, will point people in the right direction, which is greatly appreciated.

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I am not sniffing the CAN Bus yet, but have been researching options. If you want a professional tool, you will pay....

The 2 resistors are in the DSC, and either the DME or Dash depending on the engine type. To be honest, where they are doesn't really matter if you are keeping all the devices, and simply tapping in with a proper CAN device.
Given what I've seen from my earlier experiments, there's a lot of data going on there, and you have to know exactly what you're looking for...indeed, that is quite a painful process.

Thanks for the location info, I figured it would be in an not often accessed location.
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:18 PM   #59
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That sounds like the tune is doing stuff which is throwing off torque reduction...

Ie, shift, RPMs flare up, gearbox engages?

That means it's not pulling enough torque during the shift, the same issue I have with the ProEFI.

-Matt
Matt,

That is why I posted this, if it was the same issue, it may be the gs30, not the pro efi. I have never experienced my ssg pull torque during gear change from before it was modified to now, are you sure it does this? I may just not notice it?

I have some film of the car running with the 3.38 diff before I got it running synced, it shows all the steps the gs30 takes, in a sense, but out of sequence. Would you like me to post it on YouTube and send you a link?

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Old 12-31-2013, 10:33 PM   #60
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I often wonder if with the ssg, as it doesn't like lightened flywheels either, if it could simply be that the engine revs over the parameters set during gear change. Nothing to back this, but just a thought.

Edit: if the pro efi supports torque reduction via a voltage input, could you use a proximity sensor on the clutch actuator, and switch perhaps on the shifter to command a timed reduction.

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