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Old 10-09-2013, 08:43 AM   #61
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Driving to court can't post
OK waiting on judge. The point was that the tea party is opposed to over taxation. To the psyche of the tax payer it does not matter who is stealing from your pocket. At the time of the tea party the government just stole our money and handed it over to the banks we were just told caused the recession (obviously no role of government! Lol). Property taxes and school taxes are at a high in many areas. Sales taxes are high. The government is talking about jacking up capital gains rates... Stealing from your retirement.

Of course not everything is federal only, but the total tax burden on regular middle class people is huge. Given the cost of living in some areas it qualifies as oppressive.

Let us not forget that when the income tax was implemented it was only supposed to skim a little off the very top. Now it takes a handful from almost 50%. There are no signs it will go anywhere but up.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:51 AM   #62
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OK waiting on judge. The point was that the tea party is opposed to over taxation. To the psyche of the tax payer it does not matter who is stealing from your pocket. At the time of the tea party the government just stole our money and handed it over to the banks we were just told caused the recession (obviously no role of government! Lol). Property taxes and school taxes are at a high in many areas. Sales taxes are high. The government is talking about jacking up capital gains rates... Stealing from your retirement.

Of course not everything is federal only, but the total tax burden on regular middle class people is huge. Given the cost of living in some areas it qualifies as oppressive.

Let us not forget that when the income tax was implemented it was only supposed to skim a little off the very top. Now it takes a handful from almost 50%. There are no signs it will go anywhere but up.
The tea party is opposed to over taxation at a time when federal, state and local taxes are at relatively low levels given our history? I can see your point about the bail outs, but that is a distant memory for most, it seems.

Capital gains have nothing to do with a majority of peoples retirement since the most common savings vehicle, a 401k or an IRA, are taxed at ordinary income upon distribution.....aka, zero to do with capital gains. Also, there are zero capital gains within the account prior to distribution.

The total tax burden on the average family doesn't seem to be above the historical average rates.....but I invite you to post numbers/sources like I did to show me otherwise.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:55 AM   #63
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Historical doesn't mean anything, it matters how it affects your situation now in the present. I can't look up anything I'm in a courtroom on my phone

Also remember that this conversation started because blacky mcangry said it was only because Obama is black
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:57 AM   #64
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State and local taxes are low where? They certainly are not low in the states where people have typically higher salaries and costs of living.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:58 AM   #65
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Historical doesn't mean anything, it matters how it affects your situation now in the present. I can't look up anything I'm in a courtroom on my phone
Historical means everything when a person is complaining about being taxed too much. If you were paying more taxes last year, and now paying less this year, why would you start complaining about your taxes when they are lower?


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Also remember that this conversation started because blacky mcangry said it was only because Obama is black
I try to ignore his posts.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:59 AM   #66
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State and local taxes are low where? They certainly are not low in the states where people have typically higher salaries and costs of living.
When you're not waiting on the judge, check out the the link I posted. Look, I sympathize with your tax situation, but you can't seem to recognize that your tax situation is the exception, not the rule.

And of course state taxes are going to be higher where a higher cost of living exists.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:11 AM   #67
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The tea party is opposed to over taxation at a time when federal, state and local taxes are at relatively low levels given our history? I can see your point about the bail outs, but that is a distant memory for most, it seems.

Capital gains have nothing to do with a majority of peoples retirement since the most common savings vehicle, a 401k or an IRA, are taxed at ordinary income upon distribution.....aka, zero to do with capital gains. Also, there are zero capital gains within the account prior to distribution.

The total tax burden on the average family doesn't seem to be above the historical average rates.....but I invite you to post numbers/sources like I did to show me otherwise.


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State and local taxes are low where? They certainly are not low in the states where people have typically higher salaries and costs of living.
So you agree that it's a local and state issue, not a federal one. Why all the hate towards the federal government, then?
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:22 AM   #68
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It's all too high, that's the point
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:23 AM   #69
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It's all too high, that's the point
Even though we're well below the historical highs? Where was the outrage back then? That's the point I'm trying to drive home.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:24 AM   #70
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The tea party is opposed to over taxation at a time when federal, state and local taxes are at relatively low levels given our history? I can see your point about the bail outs, but that is a distant memory for most, it seems.

Capital gains have nothing to do with a majority of peoples retirement since the most common savings vehicle, a 401k or an IRA, are taxed at ordinary income upon distribution.....aka, zero to do with capital gains. Also, there are zero capital gains within the account prior to distribution.

The total tax burden on the average family doesn't seem to be above the historical average rates.....but I invite you to post numbers/sources like I did to show me otherwise.
That's all excusable when inflation is kept in check, however when an individual's dollar buys less and less each year, the pain associated with taxation is amplified and in my opinion, this makes the taxation debate perfectly reasonable. However, even this is overlooking the bigger picture. The Problem isn't necessarily the taxation rate, it's the fact that the tax revenue is being squandered and wasted on unnecessary, redundant and inefficient government programs.

In regard to your statement relating to 401(k)s and other savings vehicles; I think it's important to note that most individuals who have their nest egg in a 401(k) are largely clueless about the economy, politics and the markets. Those who actively manage their money using other vehicles are constantly worried that fiscally liberal politicians will get their way and ream these individuals when they get the opportunity to rewrite our ridiculous 73,000+ page tax code.

Take a look at this list of departments comprising the federal government; I would be willing to bet we could easily abolish 1/3rd to 1/2 of this bullshit and still experience economic growth. What say you?

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Administration for Children and Families
Administration for Native Americans
Administration on Aging
Administration on Developmental Disabilities
Administrative Committee of the Federal Register
Administrative Conference of the United States
Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts
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Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition
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Chief Financial Officers Council
Chief Human Capital Officers Council
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National Aeronautics and Space Administration
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National AIDS Policy Office
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National Cemetery Administration
National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform
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National Counterintelligence Executive, Office of
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National Economic Council
National Endowment for the Arts
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National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
National Indian Gaming Commission
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National Institute of Standards and Technology
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National Labor Relations Board
National Marine Fisheries Service
National Mediation Board
National Nuclear Security Administration
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National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
National Park Foundation
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National Railroad Passenger Corporation
National Reconnaissance Office
National Science Foundation
National Security Agency
National Security Council
National Technical Information Service
National Telecommunications and Information Administration
National Transportation Safety Board
National Weather Service
Natural Resources Conservation Service
Northwest Power Planning Council
Nuclear Energy, Science and Technology
Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Nuclear Waste Technical Review Board

Oak Ridge National Laboratory
Occupational Safety and Health Review Commission
Office for Civil Rights, Department of Education
Office of Compliance
Office of Disability Employment Policy
Office of Elementary and Secondary Education
Office of Government Ethics
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention
Office of Management and Budget
Office of Mediation and Concitiation Service
Office of National Drug Control Policy
Office of Personnel Management
Office of Refugee Resettlement
Office of Science and Technology Policy
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Office of Special Counsel
Office of the Comptroller of the Currency
Office of the Director of National Intelligence
Office of the Pardon Attorney See Pardon Attorney, Office of
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Pardon Attorney, Office of See Office of the Pardon Attorney
Parole Commission
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Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation
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President's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:24 AM   #71
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Attack the feds.


Thanks for reinforcing my point.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:26 AM   #72
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It's all too high, that's the point
I can't even respond properly to a statement that vague.

High compared to what? Based on what? Why now? Who is the biggest offender? States? Federal government? Counties?
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:28 AM   #73
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Even though we're well below the historical highs? Where was the outrage back then? That's the point I'm trying to drive home.
In the 1950s and 60s when the upper income earners of the US were taxed at rates higher than at any point during history, it was relatively tolerable. Government spending was in control, the US GDP growth was robust and unemployment was manageable. Today there are individuals with graduate degrees working two part-time dead end jobs to pay off their student loans. Of course, those people aren't even counted under the new unemployment formula and our CPI doesn't reflect the real inflation anymore, so no one considers these things.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:29 AM   #74
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That's all excusable when inflation is kept in check, however when an individual's dollar buys less and less each year, the pain associated with taxation is amplified and in my opinion, this makes the taxation debate perfectly reasonable. However, even this is overlooking the bigger picture. The Problem isn't necessarily the taxation rate, it's the fact that the tax revenue is being squandered and wasted on unnecessary, redundant and inefficient government programs.
Eh, I sort of see your point about the inflation comment, however, if tax rates kept with inflation (which they haven't, they've decreased) then people are getting taxes less now, on a real basis and an inflation adjusted basis, than they were back then. In that case, the issue is inflation and a stagnant wage.

I can get on board with tax revenue being squandered across the board....Republican spending and Democrat spending, but the TP only seems to be concerned with the latter.

Quote:
In regard to your statement relating to 401(k)s and other savings vehicles; I think it's important to note that most individuals who have their nest egg in a 401(k) are largely clueless about the economy, politics and the markets. Those who actively manage their money using other vehicles are constantly worried that fiscally liberal politicians will get their way and ream these individuals when they get the opportunity to rewrite our ridiculous 73,000+ page tax code.
Totally disagree with the statement about people and 401k's. I don't see how either of them relate, and I work in wealth management so I see this stuff daily. I agree that some are clueless about the economy, but some aren't, as well. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule.

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Take a look at this list of departments comprising the federal government; I would be willing to bet we could easily abolish 1/3rd to 1/2 of this bullshit and still experience economic growth. What say you?
I won't comment on being able to cut a certain fraction, but I absolutely agree that that list could use some definite slimming down
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:32 AM   #75
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In the 1950s and 60s when the upper income earners of the US were taxed at rates higher than at any point during history, it was relatively tolerable. Government spending was in control, the US GDP growth was robust and unemployment was manageable. Today there are individuals with graduate degrees working two part-time dead end jobs to pay off their student loans. Of course, those people aren't even counted under the new unemployment formula and our CPI doesn't reflect the real inflation anymore, so no one considers these things.
I'm curious to hear how the UE formula has changed. I haven't seen anything major occur for the U1-U6 calculations of UE.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:42 AM   #76
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Eh, I sort of see your point about the inflation comment, however, if tax rates kept with inflation (which they haven't, they've decreased) then people are getting taxes less now, on a real basis and an inflation adjusted basis, than they were back then. In that case, the issue is inflation and a stagnant wage.
Okay, for the sake of argument, let's go from there. Why do we have inflation and why do we have stagnant wages (stagflation)? Because the federal government has pursued foolish policies which do not promote real economic growth on all levels, from main street to wall street. Rather than addressing our true economic woes, the current administration has made it a point to punish the wealthy individuals who live in this country by threatening them with higher tax rates and effectively forcing them to cut hours for employees thanks to destructive legislation like the affordable care act.

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I can get on board with tax revenue being squandered across the board....Republican spending and Democrat spending, but the TP only seems to be concerned with the latter.
I do not reflect the opinions and stance of the tea party. I agree with their belief that government has grown out of control, but the religious and anti abortion bullshit makes me want to wretch. I honestly consider those backwards beliefs to be counterproductive to the future of mankind. I know I'm in an insanely small minority.


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Totally disagree with the statement about people and 401k's. I don't see how either of them relate, and I work in wealth management so I see this stuff daily. I agree that some are clueless about the economy, but some aren't, as well. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule.
Considering the fact that you work in wealth management, I would be willing to bet that you're surrounding by individuals who are slightly more attuned to the markets and what's going on in the world. Most individuals who call the US home actually haven't a clue what's going on. Regardless, all of this ignores the fact that last year, the current administration made it a point to try to punish upper income people with disproportionately higher taxes - public enemy number one in terms of economic growth.


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I won't comment on being able to cut a certain fraction, but I absolutely agree that that list could use some definite slimming down
I've said it before (to another user) in the political forum and I'll say it again, you're almost too reasonable for me to argue with.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:45 AM   #77
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I'm curious to hear how the UE formula has changed. I haven't seen anything major occur for the U1-U6 calculations of UE.
Unemployment is calculated in such a way that it ignores individuals who are working jobs below their skill and education levels and it also neglects to take into account individuals who are chronically unemployed - those who have given up looking for work all together who are living on public assistance or in a work retraining program. None of this was an issue until the subprime mortgage crises ushered in the US economy's transition to a part-time workforce.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:48 AM   #78
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Unemployment is calculated in such a way that it ignores individuals who are working jobs below their skill and education levels and it also neglects to take into account individuals who are chronically unemployed - those who have given up looking for work all together who are living on public assistance or in a work retraining program. None of this was an issue until the subprime mortgage crises ushered in the US economy's transition to a part-time workforce.
The BLS calculates all of that in different levels of unemployment:


U1: Percentage of labor force unemployed 15 weeks or longer.
U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work.
U3: Official unemployment rate per the ILO definition occurs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks.
U4: U3 + "discouraged workers", or those who have stopped looking for work because current economic conditions make them believe that no work is available for them.
U5: U4 + other "marginally attached workers", or "loosely attached workers", or those who "would like" and are able to work, but have not looked for work recently.
U6: U5 + Part-time workers who want to work full-time, but cannot due to economic reasons (underemployment).

Nothing, to my knowledge, has majorly changed about how these 6 are calculated. U3 is the typical one that we hear about on a regular basis.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:50 AM   #79
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In the 1950s and 60s when the upper income earners of the US were taxed at rates higher than at any point during history, it was relatively tolerable. Government spending was in control, the US GDP growth was robust and unemployment was manageable. Today there are individuals with graduate degrees working two part-time dead end jobs to pay off their student loans. Of course, those people aren't even counted under the new unemployment formula and our CPI doesn't reflect the real inflation anymore, so no one considers these things.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:56 AM   #80
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Okay, for the sake of argument, let's go from there. Why do we have inflation and why do we have stagnant wages (stagflation)? Because the federal government has pursued foolish policies which do not promote real economic growth on all levels, from main street to wall street. Rather than addressing our true economic woes, the current administration has made it a point to punish the wealthy individuals who live in this country by threatening them with higher tax rates and effectively forcing them to cut hours for employees thanks to destructive legislation like the affordable care act.
That's not quite what stagflation is. Stagflation is high inflation, low economic growth and high unemployment. Inflation over the past few decades has been pretty average, if I recall correctly.

Both parties are responsible for the foolish policies you mention. There is no silver bullet to get out of the trouble we could potentially face.....increasing taxes and cutting spending are a good start, but both sides act like this will be the stake through their collective hearts if either happens.



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I do not reflect the opinions and stance of the tea party. I agree with their belief that government has grown out of control, but the religious and anti abortion bullshit makes me want to wretch. I honestly consider those backwards beliefs to be counterproductive to the future of mankind. I know I'm in an insanely small minority.
I'm right there with ya, except I think the TP is entirely misdirected by the Republican party.




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Considering the fact that you work in wealth management, I would be willing to bet that you're surrounding by individuals who are slightly more attuned to the markets and what's going on in the world. Most individuals who call the US home actually haven't a clue what's going on. Regardless, all of this ignores the fact that last year, the current administration made it a point to try to punish upper income people with disproportionately higher taxes - public enemy number one in terms of economic growth.
You'd be surprised. I work specifically in the high net worth/ultra high net worth space and I would say the level of "caring" is definitely higher than average, but there are unaware idiots in every strata of wealth.




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I've said it before (to another user) in the political forum and I'll say it again, you're almost too reasonable for me to argue with.


I try to be as reasonable as possible with this type of stuff because I genuinely enjoy talking about it and it's something that impacts all of us, whether we like it or not.

However, if someone posts something unreasonable/hyperbolic/idiotic, I won't hesitate to point it out. Think le0307, phrozen, BB BMW, etc.
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