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Old 10-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dmax View Post
And when people have no clue how to verify information and just buy what they're being handed by the sources they believe unquestioningly, I can't help but begin that way.

I get pissed when I see millions being lied to and there's no way to get them the truth, because the truth comes from places they don't expose themselves to, preferring an insular life where only what they believe is true. I suppose it must be nice for them, but I think people should accept reality.
So your approach is to talk down to people and then somehow expect them to be interested in what you have to say? That sounds effective.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:15 AM   #62
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"Pay attention people" is talking down? I guess I can see how if you weren't paying attention, you'd think it that, but you're putting yourself down if you don't look up the facts.

It's clear who shut down the government. You want to argue that there was a reason for doing so, go ahead, but 'own' which party actually shut it down.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:05 AM   #63
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"Pay attention people" is talking down? I guess I can see how if you weren't paying attention, you'd think it that, but you're putting yourself down if you don't look up the facts.

It's clear who shut down the government. You want to argue that there was a reason for doing so, go ahead, but 'own' which party actually shut it down.
Oh how I love the mentality of "me against them". Makes for smooth progression eh?
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:37 AM   #64
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Oh how I love the mentality of "me against them". Makes for smooth progression eh?
Just because there's a clear answer to who shut down the government does not mean that it's a "me vs them" mentality.

Republicans did it. That's painfully obvious.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:49 AM   #65
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"Pay attention people" is talking down? I guess I can see how if you weren't paying attention, you'd think it that, but you're putting yourself down if you don't look up the facts.

It's clear who shut down the government. You want to argue that there was a reason for doing so, go ahead, but 'own' which party actually shut it down.
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Just because there's a clear answer to who shut down the government does not mean that it's a "me vs them" mentality.

Republicans did it. That's painfully obvious.
Not saying they didn't. Go read the ACA and tell me why all those arbitrary "funds" need to be made immediately for spending? Why are those spending amounts what they are?

I can't believe as an independent I've read an act much further than 2 Democrats who fully support an act on the premise that it will solve our health care issues. You guys got flustered with me and others arguing about it, I read a good portion of it, and then nobody else here proceeds to do the same. Go figure.

Edit: I'm not agreeing with the Republicans as I'm sure a lot of their motivation for this is to "stick in the Democrats' faces, ha". I would hope the spending amount gets reviewed and discussed. That would be my justification for saying "hey guys, before we move forward, let's check these spending amounts, and then proceed with further implementing health care reform".
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:51 AM   #66
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Not saying they didn't. Go read the ACA and tell me why all those arbitrary "funds" need to be made immediately for spending? Why are those spending amounts what they are?

I can't believe as an independent I've read an act much further than 2 Democrats who fully support an act on the premise that it will solve our health care issues. You guys got flustered with me and others arguing about it, I read a good portion of it, and then nobody else here proceeds to do the same. Go figure.
If you want to link to something, I'd gladly take a look at it.

Are these "funds" reason enough to shut down the government? Default on the debt?
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:54 AM   #67
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If you want to link to something, I'd gladly take a look at it.

Are these "funds" reason enough to shut down the government? Default on the debt?
No. Checkout my edit.

And here's a quick snapshot of what I read from the act. I had more handwritten notes somewhere when I read it on the plane, but can't source them at the moment. Still thinking about reading the entire act at some point. A lot of what is listed below, I actually support.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=182
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:11 AM   #68
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No. Checkout my edit.


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Originally Posted by bimmerfan08 View Post
And here's a quick snapshot of what I read from the act. I had more handwritten notes somewhere when I read it on the plane, but can't source them at the moment. Still thinking about reading the entire act at some point. A lot of what is listed below, I actually support.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=182
I'm not sure which of those you find most objectionable, but you have to realize there will always be things in any law that aren't perfect. You'll always date someone who isn't perfect in every single way. Nothing is perfect.

I think that the "homeland security" acts are far more intrusive and dangerous to our future and would be worth shutting down the government over. This is just political grandstanding and chest puffing.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:33 AM   #69
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"Pay attention people" is talking down? I guess I can see how if you weren't paying attention, you'd think it that, but you're putting yourself down if you don't look up the facts.
Yes, it is. Period. So is your lecture on "facts."

But if you don't think so, at least you're in good company:


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Old 10-16-2013, 09:59 AM   #70
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Republicans did it. That's painfully obvious.
What is the reasoning behind this assertion?
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:10 AM   #71
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What is the reasoning behind this assertion?
[The administration] wouldn't have had the opportunity to handle it that way if we had not shut down the government on a fool's errand that we were not going to accomplish. The whole premise of shutting down the government was the repeal of Obamacare. I fought against Obamacare harder than any of the people who wanted to shut down the government."
- John McCain

The fact that Boehner repeatedly refused to hold a vote is astonishing.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:14 AM   #72
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32 Republicans Who Caused the Government Shutdown

Friday was the fourth day of the government shutdown, and there’s still no sign of an exit. What’s surprising about the ongoing fight is how a small group of members of Congress have managed to bring Washington to a halt. Just months ago, Speaker John Boehner was warning that forcing the government to shut down over Obamacare or anything else was politically hazardous. Yet Boehner remains stuck, his strategy dictated by a small rump of members in the Republican caucus who refuse to budge. On Monday night, as government funding ran out, a group of around 40 hardline conservatives refused to support any resolution to fund the government that didn't defund Obamacare. Since Monday night, their goals may have become less clear, but their resolve has not weakened. While it’s widely believed that a “clean” resolution would pass the House handily, it would also likely lead to a right-wing rebellion in the caucus that would spell the end of Boehner’s speakership.


So who are those hardliners? To compile this list, we started with a roster that the Senate Conservatives Fund, a group aligned with Ted Cruz, created of representatives who were allied with them. We cross-checked it with the list of members who signed an August letter by Rep. Mark Meadows demanding that Boehner use a shutdown as a threat to defund Obamacare, and against other public statements this week. It's not a comprehensive roll — there’s no official “wacko bird” caucus that keeps a register — but it's a window into the small but powerful group of men and women in the House of Representatives who brought the federal government to a standstill.

Representative: Justin Amash
Home District: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Quoted:President Obama and Senator Reid refuse to negotiate over giving regular Americans the same breaks they give themselves, government workers, and big business.”


Representative: Michele Bachmann
Home District: Stillwater, Minnesota
Quoted: “This is about the happiest I’ve seen members in a long time because we’ve seen we’re starting to win this dialogue on a national level.”



Representative: Marsha Blackburn
Home District: Brentwood, Tennessee
Quoted:There is some good news out of the shutdown, the EPA can't issue new regulations.”


Representative: Mo Brooks
Home District: Huntsville, Alabama
Quoted: “America survived the last 17 government shutdowns.”





Representative: Paul Broun
Home District: Athens, Georgia
Quoted: “[The Democrats] need to look in the mirror, because they're the ones to blame. They're the ones that shut the government down."



Representative: John Carter
Home District: Round Rock, Texas
Quoted: “We must postpone this overreaching and damaging law that I believe will bankrupt the hard-working every day American.”



Representative: John Culberson
Home District: Houston, Texas
Quoted: “The whole room [said]: 'Let's vote!' I said, like 9/11, 'Let's roll!



Representative: Ron DeSantis
Home District: Ponte Vedra Beach, Florida
Quoted: “It is a simple issue of fairness: Members of Congress, their staff, and the political elite should not be given special relief from the harmful effects of Obamacare while the rest of America is left holding the bag.”



Representative: Scott DesJarlais
Home District: Jasper, Tennessee
Quoted: “I remain committed in refusing to vote for any proposal that funds the president’s health-care law, and I call upon my colleagues to join me. A temporary government shutdown pales in comparison to the long-term negative consequences that Obamacare will impose on our economy and our healthcare system.”


Representative: Jeff Duncan
Home District: Laurens, South Carolina
Quoted: “I believe Obamacare has shut down America, so I’d rather shut down the government than continue doing what we’re doing, which is penalizing businesses and families in this country.”



Representative: John Fleming
Home District: Minden, Louisiana
Quoted:This is what my constituents send me here for. This does underscore just how serious we are and how serious our constituents are about putting an end to Obamacare.”



Representative: Scott Garrett
Home District: Wantange Township, New Jersey
Quoted: “I am deeply disappointed that President Obama and the Senate refused to come to the negotiation table and failed to fund the federal government.”



Representative: Phil Gingrey
Home District: Marietta, Georgia
Quoted: “A majority of Americans think Obamacare will make health care in our country worse, and they’re right. House Republicans are listening to the American people, and I urge Harry Reid and Senate Democrats to do the same."



Representative: Louie Gohmert
Home District: Tyler, Texas
Quoted: "There are just so many broken promises that we need to slow this train wreck, this nightmare. It's time to put the skids on this thing and slow it down before more people get hurt."


Representative: Tom Graves
Home District: Ranger, Georgia
Quoted: "House GOP is united around a very reasonable policy: POTUS should give families the same Obamacare delay he gave to businesses."




Representative: Vicky Hartzler
Home District: Harrisonville, Missouri
Quoted: "The American people have spoken already on this: They do not want Obamacare .... It is hurting people."




Representative: Tim Huelskamp
Home District: Fowler, Kansas
Quoted: "Most Americans realize the government shutdown has no impact on their daily life. They got their mail today; they're going to get their Social Security check."



Representative: Jim Jordan
Home District: Urbana, Ohio
Quoted: "We have to get something on Obamacare, because that — if you want to get this country on a fiscal path to balance, you cannot let an entitlement of this size that will truly bankrupt the country and, more importantly, one that's not going to help Americans with their health care, you can't let this happen. "
Representative: Steve King
Home District: Kiron, Iowa
Quoted: "The American people have rejected Obamacare. The president is willing to put all of that on the line to save his namesake legislation, which I think would go down in history as the largest political tantrum ever."


Representative: Raul Labrador
Home District: Eagle, Idaho
Quoted: To Chris Matthews of MSNBC: "You know, your boss, Tip O'Neill, shut down the government 12 different times. And you didn't call him a terrorist."




Representative: Tom Massie
Home District: Garrison, Kentucky
Quoted: "It’s just not that big of a deal."




Representative: Tom McClintock
Home District: Elk Grove, California
Quoted: In response to Harry Reid calling Tea Partiers "anarchists": "When the other guy starts calling you names, you know that you're winning the debate, and you know that he knows you're winning the debate."



Representative: Mark Meadows
Home District: Cashier, North Carolina
Quoted: “James Madison wrote in Federalist No. 58 that ‘the power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon . . . for obtaining redress of every grievance.’"



Representative: Randy Neugebauer
Home District: Lubbock, Texas
Quoted: "We get tons of mail and E-mails and phone calls. And overwhelmingly, those phone calls say, 'Congressman, do everything you can to get rid of this very onerous piece of legislation. We don’t want the government running our health care.' And so, from my perspective, we’re doing the people’s work here.”

Representative: Matt Salmon
Home District: Mesa, Arizona
Quoted: “I was here during the government shutdown in 1995. It was a divided government. we had a Democrat president of the United States. We had a Republican Congress. And I believe that that government shutdown actually gave us the impetus, as we went forward, to push toward some real serious compromise.”


Representative: Mark Sanford
Home District: Charleston, South Carolina
Quoted: "Our society has been held together for over 200 years in no small part due to the belief that our system was fair or equitable, yet the implementation of the Affordable Care Act has been anything but that."


Representative: Steve Scalise
Home District: Jefferson, Louisiana
Quoted: “Either Obamacare is good enough that it should apply to all or it is so bad that it should apply to none. It is time for the sweetheart deals and backroom exemptions to end.”


Representative: Dave Schweikert
Home District: Fountain Hills, Arizona
Quoted: "I know it's not comfortable for a lot of people here, but this is how it's supposed to work. It's supposed to be cantankerous. It's supposed to be this constant grinding." *

* A previous version of this story quoted Schweikert saying that the shutdown "is my kind of fun." That statement was taken out of context. The congressman was referring to an interview with NPR, not with the government shutdown. We regret the error.
Representative: Steve Stockman
Home District: Clear Lake, Texas
Quoted: “Americans want Congress to do two things, work together on our national fiscal crisis and stop Obamacare. It’s time Congress started listening to them.”


Representative: Marlin Stutzman
Home District: Howe, Indiana
Quoted:We aren't going to be disrespected. We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”



Representative: Randy Weber
Home District: Pearland, Texas
Quoted:When the Democrats passed [Obamacare] over 60 percent of America’s wishes three years ago, they began this government shutdown.”


Representative: Ted Yoho
Home District: Gainesville, Florida
Quoted:It only takes one with passion — look at Rosa Parks, Lech Walesa, Martin Luther King.”




This post has been amended to clarify the context of a comment by Rep. Dave Schweikert.

All photos: Wikimedia Commons
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:14 AM   #73
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[The administration] wouldn't have had the opportunity to handle it that way if we had not shut down the government on a fool's errand that we were not going to accomplish. The whole premise of shutting down the government was the repeal of Obamacare. I fought against Obamacare harder than any of the people who wanted to shut down the government."
- John McCain

The fact that Boehner repeatedly refused to hold a vote is astonishing.
One Republican says "we shut down the government" and that's it?

The reasoning behind the shutdown can be spun either way. If defunding the ACA isn't worth shutting down the government, both the Democrats and Republicans are fools.

Boehner's deal in the House fell apart because he can't get his caucus in line and Pelosi has her rank and file ready to vote down anything he introduces until it becomes clear that both sides will immolate in the court of public opinion once a significant portion of the electorate actually starts feeling the effects of the partial government shutdown/debt ceiling cap.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:23 AM   #74
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One Republican says "we shut down the government" and that's it?
Clearly not, but a Democrat saying it would have carried less weight, no?

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The reasoning behind the shutdown can be spun either way. If defunding the ACA isn't worth shutting down the government, both the Democrats and Republicans are fools.
It takes a bit of creativity to spin in that way. The Republicans are the ones with the unreasonable demand. Take politics out of it. If either party were in the same position and they gave in, it would spell disaster for the future of any legislation passed by any party in the future.

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Boehner's deal in the House fell apart because he can't get his caucus in line and Pelosi has her rank and file ready to vote down anything he introduces until it becomes clear that both sides will immolate in the court of public opinion once a significant portion of the electorate actually starts feeling the effects of the partial government shutdown/debt ceiling cap.
But why doesn't Boehner just let his people vote? If they vote to fund the government, we move on. If they don't, people either get what they want or they don't, but then they get to see how their representatives are doing their jobs and vote accordingly in the next election.

Just vote.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:18 AM   #75
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Both sides are using the tools that are available to them. Each side owes it to their constituents to use up the whole toolbox before letting this go.

If Obama can spin a slim majority win as a "mandate" on Obamacare, then surely members of Congress can do the same. Each side owes it to the other to play the whole game.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:53 AM   #76
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It takes a bit of creativity to spin in that way. The Republicans are the ones with the unreasonable demand. Take politics out of it. If either party were in the same position and they gave in, it would spell disaster for the future of any legislation passed by any party in the future.
You can't have it both ways. Either the ACA is important or it isn't. You can't have unreasonable demands over insignificant issues. If it isn't important, why don't the Democrats just cave? If it is important, both parties are justified in holding the line to the absolute limit. This is a collective effort.

The give an inch, give a mile argument doesn't work. Elections have consequences and what's true today isn't necessarily going to be true on the morning of November 5, 2014.

Kennedy, by his own admission, got creamed by Krushchev when they first met. Yet in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was the US coming out as the victor. Patterns don't exist in politics.

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But why doesn't Boehner just let his people vote? If they vote to fund the government, we move on. If they don't, people either get what they want or they don't, but then they get to see how their representatives are doing their jobs and vote accordingly in the next election.

Just vote.
That's precisely the issue. Nobody wants to formally vote on the issue until forced to do so.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:54 AM   #77
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WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democratic leader Harry Reid says Senate leaders have reached a bipartisan deal to avoid default and end the government shutdown, now in its 16th day.

Reid made the announcement at the start of the Senate session on Wednesday.

The deal would reopen the government through Jan. 15 and increase the nation's borrowing authority through Feb. 7.

Reid thanked Republican leader Mitch McConnell for working out an agreement.
Seems like a bandage......shocker.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:08 PM   #78
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Seems like a bandage......shocker.
Not sure if typo ("bandaid") or Freudian slip ("bondage")?

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Old 10-16-2013, 12:21 PM   #79
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You can't have it both ways. Either the ACA is important or it isn't. You can't have unreasonable demands over insignificant issues. If it isn't important, why don't the Democrats just cave? If it is important, both parties are justified in holding the line to the absolute limit. This is a collective effort.

The give an inch, give a mile argument doesn't work. Elections have consequences and what's true today isn't necessarily going to be true on the morning of November 5, 2014.

Kennedy, by his own admission, got creamed by Krushchev when they first met. Yet in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was the US coming out as the victor. Patterns don't exist in politics.
Eh, we can agree to disagree.

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That's precisely the issue. Nobody wants to formally vote on the issue until forced to do so.
Why the people don't demand that they do their jobs is beyond me. If Boehner says there are no votes, then vote it out and demonstrate. If there aren't, fine. If there are, great.

The fact that these people are so afraid to their job is astonishing. Something needs to be done to fix this:

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Congress Will Keep Senators' Tax Reform Wishes Secret—for 50 Years



Today The Hill reports that Senators Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), who head the Senate Finance Committee and are working on a complete rewrite of the U.S. tax code, have assured their colleagues that any of their requests to preserve a loophole will be kept secret by the National Archives for 50 years. The details of the story, all true, read as if they were dreamed up by a 10-year-old after watching Thunderball: “Each submission will also be given its own ID number and be kept on password-protected servers, with printed versions kept in locked safes,” The Hill writes. Until 2064.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...t-for-50-years
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:29 PM   #80
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Just heard on AP radio that this is the first shutdown ever where they closed monuments and stuff...draw your own conclusions.
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