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Old 10-14-2013, 11:55 PM   #41
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Young college kids? U serious
True but I wouldn't count them for several reasons:

1. You'd struggle to find many college aged libertarians.
2. They haven't actually started their lives yet so I don't know if it's fair to say they are poor based on the fact they've likely held no more than a minimum wage position.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:58 PM   #42
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Well I'd be interested to know whether or not they are a true libertarian, and why they are poor. Perhaps they are lazy? Perhaps they just don't know how to succeed?
This is a fascinating answer. Thank you.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:04 AM   #43
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This is a fascinating answer. Thank you.
Some say I don't understand sarcasm.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:05 AM   #44
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Marshmallow is the bees knees.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:13 AM   #45
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Some say I don't understand sarcasm.
Not sarcasm at all. It is a fascinating answer.

So, just to make sure I understand: the crux of libertarianism is the idea that people should succeed or fail on their own merits and hard work. Is that a fair and correct statement?
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:15 AM   #46
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I try.

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Not sarcasm at all. It is a fascinating answer.

So, just to make sure I understand: the crux of libertarianism is the idea that people should succeed or fail on their own merits and hard work. Is that a fair and correct statement?
Correct. Some may say that is unfair but we think that government giving help to some and not others is the true unfairness.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:21 AM   #47
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I try.



Correct. Some may say that is unfair but we think that government giving help to some and not others is the true unfairness.
Okay. So, hypothetically: what do you think of the notion of a 100 percent estate tax? In other words, a total prohibition on intergenerational or other interpersonal transfers of wealth? Basically a "total reset" at every generation?
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:27 AM   #48
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Okay. So, hypothetically: what do you think of the notion of a 100 percent estate tax? In other words, a total prohibition on intergenerational or other interpersonal transfers of wealth? Basically a "total reset" at every generation?
That's going a bit far. I wouldn't have that happen because the way I see it, your money is yours to do what you want with. If you would like to give it to your children, that is perfectly fine. And besides, this "reset" would not work for a couple reasons: It would require government intervention(which I hate), and it goes against the normal cycle of having kids. For this true reset to occur, parents would have to birth their children and leave them on the streets. Because anything other than that would be giving to the child without them working for it, no?
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:31 AM   #49
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That's going a bit far. I wouldn't have that happen because the way I see it, your money is yours to do what you want with. If you would like to give it to your children, that is perfectly fine. And besides, this "reset" would not work for a couple reasons: It would require government intervention(which I hate), and it goes against the normal cycle of having kids. For this true reset to occur, parents would have to birth their children and leave them on the streets. Because anything other than that would be giving to the child without them working for it, no?
They could raise the kids until a certain age, but after that, they would be cut off (financially) and have to fend for themselves. This seems, to me, to be the epitome of libertarianism. It would be ideal if this happened without government intervention, but that would be unlikely, because parents would want to prop up their lazy or stupid children--which seems, to me, to be the antithesis of libertarianism.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:48 AM   #50
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They could raise the kids until a certain age, but after that, they would be cut off (financially) and have to fend for themselves. This seems, to me, to be the epitome of libertarianism. It would be ideal if this happened without government intervention, but that would be unlikely, because parents would want to prop up their lazy or stupid children--which seems, to me, to be the antithesis of libertarianism.
While libertarianism emphasizes helping yourself, it is based mainly around your personal freedom to do as you like. If you would like to cut your children off at age 18, that's fine. If you would like to support them for the rest of their lives, that is fine too.
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:59 AM   #51
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While libertarianism emphasizes helping yourself, it is based mainly around your personal freedom to do as you like. If you would like to cut your children off at age 18, that's fine. If you would like to support them for the rest of their lives, that is fine too.
I see. So what's the difference, essentially, between libertarianism and oligarchism? Because it seems to me, based on our conversation, that libertarianism only works for a fortunate subset of the population that is either already wealthy or extraordinarily lucky. Libertarianism just seems to be another word for "maintaining the status quo for the rich without the pesky responsibilities that traditionally have gone along with it."
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:03 AM   #52
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I see. So what's the difference, essentially, between libertarianism and oligarchism? Because it seems to me, based on our conversation, that libertarianism only works for a fortunate subset of the population that is either already wealthy or extraordinarily lucky. Libertarianism just seems to be another word for "maintaining the status quo for the rich without the pesky responsibilities that traditionally have gone along with it."
How did I know that you were getting at this from the beginning? No matter if we libertarians get our way or not, you will still have people getting things. But when we say "there is no such thing as a free lunch", it doesn't mean that we are against people getting things. I give to charity and help others because I enjoy doing it. Should I stop this to uphold my "work hard" ideals? Not at all.

And just out of curiosity, what are the pesky responsibilities that rich people have?
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:13 AM   #53
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How did I know that you were getting at this from the beginning? No matter if we libertarians get our way or not, you will still have people getting things. But when we say "there is no such thing as a free lunch", it doesn't mean that we are against people getting things. I give to charity and help others because I enjoy doing it. Should I stop this to uphold my "work hard" ideals? Not at all.

And just out of curiosity, what are the pesky responsibilities that rich people have?
You didn't answer my question. I thought we were doing quite well up until now.

And, in the interest of discourse: I'm not "getting at" anything. I think your answers up until now have been well thought-out and responsive. All I'm trying to do is understand your point of view.

Your comment is interesting about "people still getting things." This seems unusual to me for an ostensibly political platform. The Republicans have a viewpoint that encompasses an entire system of government--a view on how things "ought to be," for lack of a better term. So do the Democrats. But if I'm understanding you correctly, the libertarians don't have an end game? They don't have a platform of "here's how we'd run things if we got everything we wanted"?

When I refer to "pesky responsibilities," I simply mean the historical responsibility of fortunate people to care for less-fortunate people. I'm not aware of a society throughout history that hasn't at least given lip service to this principle.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:37 AM   #54
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You didn't answer my question. I thought we were doing quite well up until now.

And, in the interest of discourse: I'm not "getting at" anything. I think your answers up until now have been well thought-out and responsive. All I'm trying to do is understand your point of view.

Your comment is interesting about "people still getting things." This seems unusual to me for an ostensibly political platform. The Republicans have a viewpoint that encompasses an entire system of government--a view on how things "ought to be," for lack of a better term. So do the Democrats. But if I'm understanding you correctly, the libertarians don't have an end game? They don't have a platform of "here's how we'd run things if we got everything we wanted"?

When I refer to "pesky responsibilities," I simply mean the historical responsibility of fortunate people to care for less-fortunate people. I'm not aware of a society throughout history that hasn't at least given lip service to this principle.
I'm enjoying this conversation. It's refreshing compared to the normal arguments.

In all honesty, it is tough to come up with a series of main points about the libertarian platform because our main goal is to shrink the government and give people more freedom. If you take a look at a normal issue like abortion, you can see that Republicans generally wouldn't allow it and Democrats generally would allow it. So where do the libertarians fit in? Well, the simple answer is nowhere. Our idea is "Who are we to decide such a personal moral decision such as abortion for the entire country?" And so on that note, we would not be legalizing it, but rather just allowing people to make their own decisions.

The major news networks would not like our libertarian government because there would be nothing to talk about. We would not spend all of our time creating more laws. Rather, we would be getting rid of a good portion of law and programs. You mentioned the two main parties' ideas of how to run a government. As libertarians, we basically admit that we don't know how to run the government. And that is true for everyone. But rather than follow standard political procedure and experiment with our ideas, we would rather just let people figure out what they want through the free market. And we could get far deeper into free markets if you'd like.

When it comes to helping the less fortunate, it is definitely a noble cause. But the last thing we want is government telling us we have to help. I know many people who help others simply because they enjoy it. The idea in America is that anyone who owns a business or supports capitalism or has any money at all is some Monopoly type guy with a monocle who watches over his suffering employees and steals from the poor. This simply isn't true at all. The concept of a free market is based around the idea that people help themselves. We have seen from communism and socialism that a community of equals never works based on human nature alone.

And the difference between libertarianism and oligarchy is that our current government is an oligarchy, run by big business and fueld by crony capitalism. My libertarian government would do its best to eradicate this.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:25 AM   #55
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Says the kid rallying around a cause he doesn't even understand.


Oh well. Ive had my back as forth with him, and after several pages we were only able to agree on Roe vs Wade

It's others people turn to get at him.

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Old 10-15-2013, 07:31 AM   #56
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True but I wouldn't count them for several reasons:

1. You'd struggle to find many college aged libertarians.
2. They haven't actually started their lives yet so I don't know if it's fair to say they are poor based on the fact they've likely held no more than a minimum wage position.
Wait wait. Let me get this straight. You consider yourself a libertarian yet you're 18 and in college.

So... Does that mean you're not going to count yourself ergo you're not a libertarian?

My mind is blown. lol.




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Old 10-15-2013, 07:58 AM   #57
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I'm enjoying this conversation. It's refreshing compared to the normal arguments.

In all honesty, it is tough to come up with a series of main points about the libertarian platform because our main goal is to shrink the government and give people more freedom. If you take a look at a normal issue like abortion, you can see that Republicans generally wouldn't allow it and Democrats generally would allow it. So where do the libertarians fit in? Well, the simple answer is nowhere. Our idea is "Who are we to decide such a personal moral decision such as abortion for the entire country?" And so on that note, we would not be legalizing it, but rather just allowing people to make their own decisions.

The major news networks would not like our libertarian government because there would be nothing to talk about. We would not spend all of our time creating more laws. Rather, we would be getting rid of a good portion of law and programs. You mentioned the two main parties' ideas of how to run a government. As libertarians, we basically admit that we don't know how to run the government. And that is true for everyone. But rather than follow standard political procedure and experiment with our ideas, we would rather just let people figure out what they want through the free market. And we could get far deeper into free markets if you'd like.

When it comes to helping the less fortunate, it is definitely a noble cause. But the last thing we want is government telling us we have to help. I know many people who help others simply because they enjoy it. The idea in America is that anyone who owns a business or supports capitalism or has any money at all is some Monopoly type guy with a monocle who watches over his suffering employees and steals from the poor. This simply isn't true at all. The concept of a free market is based around the idea that people help themselves. We have seen from communism and socialism that a community of equals never works based on human nature alone.

And the difference between libertarianism and oligarchy is that our current government is an oligarchy, run by big business and fueld by crony capitalism. My libertarian government would do its best to eradicate this.
Cool. Thanks for responding. I think I have a better understanding now.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:30 AM   #58
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If you take a look at a normal issue like abortion, you can see that Republicans generally wouldn't allow it and Democrats generally would allow it. So where do the libertarians fit in? Well, the simple answer is nowhere. Our idea is "Who are we to decide such a personal moral decision such as abortion for the entire country?" And so on that note, we would not be legalizing it, but rather just allowing people to make their own decisions.
What does that mean? How are you letting people make their own decisions if you're not legalizing it?

Take drugs for example:
- What's your stance on drugs?
- We're letting people make their own decisions?
- So it will be legal?
- No.

That doesn't make sense to me.

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The major news networks would not like our libertarian government because there would be nothing to talk about.
Things would be running that smoothly?

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We would not spend all of our time creating more laws. Rather, we would be getting rid of a good portion of law and programs.
Which ones? Any particular ones that you think would reduce the number of things for news networks to talk about?

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You mentioned the two main parties' ideas of how to run a government. As libertarians, we basically admit that we don't know how to run the government.
Do you not think that government is necessary? Who will "govern"?

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And that is true for everyone. But rather than follow standard political procedure and experiment with our ideas, we would rather just let people figure out what they want through the free market. And we could get far deeper into free markets if you'd like.
"Let people figure out what they want through the free market." Elaborate, please. What would the people figure out through the free market that they can't currently figure out because the government is in the way?

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When it comes to helping the less fortunate, it is definitely a noble cause. But the last thing we want is government telling us we have to help. I know many people who help others simply because they enjoy it. The idea in America is that anyone who owns a business or supports capitalism or has any money at all is some Monopoly type guy with a monocle who watches over his suffering employees and steals from the poor. This simply isn't true at all.
You're right. That simply isn't true. It is not the idea in America. Claiming that everyone in America thinks of business owners like that is like proclaiming that everyone in America thinks that every poor person deserves to be poor.

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The concept of a free market is based around the idea that people help themselves.
That seems a bit inadequate as a description of the free market, don't you think. You could be describing anarchism and no one would know the difference.

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We have seen from communism and socialism that a community of equals never works based on human nature alone.
Strawman argument. No one is advocating a society of equals.

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And the difference between libertarianism and oligarchy is that our current government is an oligarchy, run by big business and fueld by crony capitalism. My libertarian government would do its best to eradicate this.
How? You're eliminating rules. Would that not benefit those with money?
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:02 AM   #59
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Oh well. Ive had my back as forth with him, and after several pages we were only able to agree on Roe vs Wade

It's others people turn to get at him.


The biggest issue with him is the inability to think 3 seconds past the current idea he is proposing.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:17 AM   #60
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The biggest issue with him is the inability to think 3 seconds past the current idea he is proposing.
Don't worry. The free market will take care of [insert problem here].
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