E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-15-2013, 09:48 AM   #61
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Such City
Posts: 5,635
My Ride: '02 Dogemobile Shibe
i'm d2revolve

**** is too boring around here
__________________
Zell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 10:05 AM   #62
bimmerfan08
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 4,890
My Ride: Phoenix Yellow M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
Don't worry. The free market will take care of [rustlin' busa's jimmies].
__________________
"Economics cannot answer such normative or prescriptive questions about how much of our market incomes, if any, should be transferred to poor families. This is a political question that can only be answered at the ballot box, or in some countries, at the point of a gun."
bimmerfan08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 10:11 AM   #63
'busa
Registered User
 
'busa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 1,465
My Ride: E90 335i (sold)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfan08 View Post
Supply and demand, baby.
__________________
'busa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 11:44 AM   #64
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 1,996
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post


Oh well. Ive had my back as forth with him, and after several pages we were only able to agree on Roe vs Wade

It's others people turn to get at him.





I'm not done with you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
Wait wait. Let me get this straight. You consider yourself a libertarian yet you're 18 and in college.

So... Does that mean you're not going to count yourself ergo you're not a libertarian?

My mind is blown. lol.
I think we've already established that I'm not your average college student.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VaderDave View Post
Cool. Thanks for responding. I think I have a better understanding now.
You're so level headed I'd be happy to answer any question you ever have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
The biggest issue with him is the inability to think 3 seconds past the current idea he is proposing.
Do you want to get into some socialist (sorry, democratic) policies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
Don't worry. The free market will take care of [insert problem here].
It certainly will.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 11:57 AM   #65
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 1,996
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
What does that mean? How are you letting people make their own decisions if you're not legalizing it?

Take drugs for example:
- What's your stance on drugs?
- We're letting people make their own decisions?
- So it will be legal?
- No.

That doesn't make sense to me.
My government would make all drugs legal.

Quote:
Things would be running that smoothly?
Quote:
Which ones? Any particular ones that you think would reduce the number of things for news networks to talk about?
Well the media thing I said was more of a joke because obviously they are going to have a field day when I'm in office. But the point is there is nothing really typical to report on , like disputes about creating new laws.

Quote:
Do you not think that government is necessary? Who will "govern"?
And yes, I think that government is necessary. It just doesn't need to be so big and intrusive.

Quote:
"Let people figure out what they want through the free market." Elaborate, please. What would the people figure out through the free market that they can't currently figure out because the government is in the way?
A free market is motivated by choice and price. It's not always finite the benefits my changes would bring because this is largely untested except for the very beginning of our country's independence.

Quote:
You're right. That simply isn't true. It is not the idea in America. Claiming that everyone in America thinks of business owners like that is like proclaiming that everyone in America thinks that every poor person deserves to be poor.
You are getting the opposite point from me. The idea in America is victimization. Everyone is the victim. Especially poor people, who are victims of the evil businessmen!

Quote:
That seems a bit inadequate as a description of the free market, don't you think. You could be describing anarchism and no one would know the difference.
What's next? Comparing Somalia to a libertarian's paradise?

Quote:
Strawman argument. No one is advocating a society of equals.
Ah, I see. Some are more equal than others in your opinion.

Quote:
How? You're eliminating rules. Would that not benefit those with money?
You are one sentence away from a Family Guy argument. Just because I want lax business regulations doesn't mean that the evil capitalist is going to pump tons of smoke out of his factory and steal your house.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 01:44 PM   #66
phrozen06
NA V8
 
phrozen06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 39°27'33"N 77°58'04"W
Posts: 7,512
My Ride: E46, E92 M3, R32 VW
Send a message via Yahoo to phrozen06
__________________

S65: 4.0 Liter, V8, 414 hp @8,300 rpm, 295 lb/ft @3900 rpm, 445 lb, DOHC, 12:1 C/R, crankshaft 44 lb, wet sump.
2 oil pumps,double vanos variable valve timing, EMS: MSS60, 8 electronically controlled individual throttle butterflies.
4 valves per cylinder, cracked trapezoidal connecting rods, brake energy regeneration. Ion-flow combustion monitoring.

phrozen06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:02 PM   #67
rdsesq
ouroboros autorotica
 
rdsesq's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Cali...the only state that matters
Posts: 1,452
My Ride: 2002 330i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
And yes, I think that government is necessary. It just doesn't need to be so big and intrusive.
There's the rub, to quote the Bard. It is a question of perspective. "big and intrusive" are always relative. What is "big and intrusive" to you, may be simply necessary to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
You are getting the opposite point from me. The idea in America is victimization. Everyone is the victim. Especially poor people, who are victims of the evil businessmen!
Wow!!! Generalize much? It is only victimization if people perceive it as such. There are those that do. There are those that don't....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
What's next? Comparing Somalia to a libertarian's paradise?
It is. It is the dark side of a libertarian paradise, but there are always two sides to every coin.



Ah, I see. Some are more equal than others in your opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Just because I want lax business regulations doesn't mean that the evil capitalist is going to pump tons of smoke out of his factory and steal your house.
If there are no regulations to prevent them from doing so, both good and evil capitalists will. How does one know this. History has proven it. Go back to the '70s and you will find corporation who knowingly dumped known toxic waste into oceans, water supplies, and the like. Simply because it was the cheapest way of disposing of it and that maximized their profits.

This is not to say that all will, but, to say that none will is utter folly.


The truth is that the logical conclusion of libertarianism and the free market is anarchy. A truly free market has no rules and no regulations. Person A is free to kill and take from Person B if person B cannot defend themselves from the attack. As soon as you apply any laws or regulations around it, it is no longer truly free. You may be desirous of a relatively free market. But again, just like "big and intrusive government" it is all relative and what you define as a constricted market may be another person's view of a free market.

It is all relative. I am glad you want to create your own utopia. But, it is as much a dream as is Plato's republic.

I do hope that you are paying 100% for all your college expenses and I do hope you have started to pay back your parents the entire cost they laid out for raising you. While they were free to do so, if you don't, you are no more a leech taking that which is not yours than anybody else. Whether it is from the govt or an other person is immaterial in the Randist world view.
And let's be honest, that is what you are channeling.
__________________
"The existence of life is a highly overrated phenomenon."
-- Dr Manhattan

quis custodiet ipsos custodes
rdsesq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:03 PM   #68
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
stop with the anarchist straw man argument, it's inane
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:04 PM   #69
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 1,996
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Libertarians are not confederate flag waving, bud drinking, pickup truck driving, poor dental health, banjo playing, immigrant hating, made in America good ol' boys.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:06 PM   #70
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 505
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
stop with the anarchist straw man argument, it's inane
how so? anarchy is simply the absense of government, exactly what Stay Puft is proposing. Anarchy itself doesn't suggest chaos. Your simple understanding of it does.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:13 PM   #71
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
how so? anarchy is simply the absense of government, exactly what Stay Puft is proposing. Anarchy itself doesn't suggest chaos. Your simple understanding of it does.
No one is advocating for anarchy or even wholesale deregulation. The strawman argument, again, is that "wanting a smaller government = wanting no government." That is not, and has never been the case. RIF
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:18 PM   #72
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 505
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
No one is advocating for anarchy or even wholesale deregulation. The strawman argument, again, is that "wanting a smaller government = wanting no government." That is not, and has never been the case. RIF
I don't know what RIF means.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:20 PM   #73
'busa
Registered User
 
'busa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 1,465
My Ride: E90 335i (sold)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
No one is advocating for anarchy or even wholesale deregulation. The strawman argument, again, is that "wanting a smaller government = wanting no government." That is not, and has never been the case. RIF
Then someone needs to do a better job of defining what they are trying to accomplish:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
The concept of a free market is based around the idea that people help themselves.
__________________
'busa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:24 PM   #74
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 1,996
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdsesq View Post
There's the rub, to quote the Bard. It is a question of perspective. "big and intrusive" are always relative. What is "big and intrusive" to you, may be simply necessary to someone else.
Of course it is relative, but my opinion is that current government is too large.

Quote:
Wow!!! Generalize much? It is only victimization if people perceive it as such. There are those that do. There are those that don't....
Obviously, this is a generalization. Not everyone plays the victim card. But most do. Welcome to 'murica.

Quote:
It is. It is the dark side of a libertarian paradise, but there are always two sides to every coin.
Thank you for accepting that anarchy is not the same as free market.

Quote:
Ah, I see. Some are more equal than others in your opinion.
I was making reference to 'busa's post. In my perfect world, everyone would be truly equal socially but certainly not financially.

Quote:
If there are no regulations to prevent them from doing so, both good and evil capitalists will. How does one know this. History has proven it. Go back to the '70s and you will find corporation who knowingly dumped known toxic waste into oceans, water supplies, and the like. Simply because it was the cheapest way of disposing of it and that maximized their profits.

This is not to say that all will, but, to say that none will is utter folly.
I've said many times that I will keep pollution controls. But green energy is a different story.

Quote:
The truth is that the logical conclusion of libertarianism and the free market is anarchy. A truly free market has no rules and no regulations. Person A is free to kill and take from Person B if person B cannot defend themselves from the attack. As soon as you apply any laws or regulations around it, it is no longer truly free. You may be desirous of a relatively free market. But again, just like "big and intrusive government" it is all relative and what you define as a constricted market may be another person's view of a free market.
Why do all the opponents of libertarianism think that we are going to disband the entire government and let people run free killing each other. This is just unrealistic.

Quote:
It is all relative. I am glad you want to create your own utopia. But, it is as much a dream as is Plato's republic.

I do hope that you are paying 100% for all your college expenses and I do hope you have started to pay back your parents the entire cost they laid out for raising you. While they were free to do so, if you don't, you are no more a leech taking that which is not yours than anybody else. Whether it is from the govt or an other person is immaterial in the Randist world view.
And let's be honest, that is what you are channeling.
I've also gone over this, but here is a summary. Any money I get from my parents was given to me by them voluntarily and they were not forced to do so by the government. I also don't believe I'm entitled to it.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:29 PM   #75
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 1,996
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
Then someone needs to do a better job of defining what they are trying to accomplish:
When I say "help themselves" that doesn't equate to throwing everyone else under the bus and killing others to succeed.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:32 PM   #76
'busa
Registered User
 
'busa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FL
Posts: 1,465
My Ride: E90 335i (sold)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Of course it is relative, but my opinion is that current government is too large.
By how much? It's twice the size it should be? Seven times? Maybe it's just 20% too large? How do you know it's too large at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Thank you for accepting that anarchy is not the same as free market.
The way you define it, it's hard to tell. You keep saying how your system will be free of certain problems that plague today's system, but you don't say how. You just credit the "free market"?

Name a scenario where the free market will do a better job of regulating itself then the government does of regulating it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
I've said many times that I will keep pollution controls. But green energy is a different story.
You'll keep the EPA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Why do all the opponents of libertarianism think that we are going to disband the entire government and let people run free killing each other. This is just unrealistic.
Where are you on abortion again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
When I say "help themselves" that doesn't equate to throwing everyone else under the bus and killing others to succeed.
I didn't think you'd legalize murder. Don't worry. The fact that this is your rebuttal to my post worries me, though. You've got absolutely zero details. You just hope that you can disband a large portion of the government and things will self-regulate.

Again, by how much is the government "too big"?
__________________

Last edited by 'busa; 10-15-2013 at 02:33 PM.
'busa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:32 PM   #77
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
Of course it is relative, but my opinion is that current government is too large.
IIRC that is the prevailing believe of most Americans in recent polling, regardless of party affiliation.
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:44 PM   #78
evolved
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 816
My Ride: 2011 BMW 135i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
IIRC that is the prevailing believe of most Americans in recent polling, regardless of party affiliation.
I'd be interested to see what the range of responses would be when prompted to cite specific areas that need size reductions.
__________________

Present
2011 BMW 135i - BSM
Past
2006 Mazdaspeed 6 GT, 2000 BMW 323ci, 2003 Evolution VIII, 1995 Nissan 240sx w/ SR20DET

E46Sig
evolved is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 03:03 PM   #79
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 1,996
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Quote:
Originally Posted by Act of God View Post
IIRC that is the prevailing believe of most Americans in recent polling, regardless of party affiliation.
I think you are correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'busa View Post
By how much? It's twice the size it should be? Seven times? Maybe it's just 20% too large? How do you know it's too large at all?
I'd say if we shrunk it to 20% of it's current size that would be optimal. But I'd take as high as 60%.

Quote:
The way you define it, it's hard to tell. You keep saying how your system will be free of certain problems that plague today's system, but you don't say how. You just credit the "free market"?
Name a scenario where the free market will do a better job of regulating itself then the government does of regulating it?
How about the obesity problem that liberals rally around? This is worsened by the government?

Quote:
You'll keep the EPA?
Oh my look at this crazy libertarian! He wants a little government intervention that's so crazy I thought they wanted chaos!

Quote:
Where are you on abortion again?
Legal. Not my decision.

Quote:
I didn't think you'd legalize murder. Don't worry. The fact that this is your rebuttal to my post worries me, though. You've got absolutely zero details. You just hope that you can disband a large portion of the government and things will self-regulate.
You think that because I'm against a police state that I'm going to get rid of all police. Actually, my government will have harsher policies against violent crime like murder and rape.

Quote:
Again, by how much is the government "too big"?
To the point that the appropriate size of the government is blurred between the political parties. Republicans typically say it's too big, Democrats say it's too small. For the most part, both parties now say it is too big.

It is too big.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 03:10 PM   #80
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Rallier calls for revolution, for Obama to put the Quran down and leave town! C

Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
The biggest issue with him is the inability to think 3 seconds past the current idea he is proposing.



Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use