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Old 12-03-2013, 02:54 PM   #1
jon-k
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ESS TS2 Supercharger VS TT Stage 1 Turbo

I have done lots of searching on the subject. Here are some useful links for others interested in the topic:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=775044
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=828666

I have a specific question though. One of the general advantages touted for turbo over supercharger is that a turbo'd car will make more power on the same amount of boost. Why then does it seem that the ESS TS2 makes more power? TT claims 50% increase in power. This would make approx 277 BHP on a 325i. ESS claims 320 BHP on a 325i. Both run 8.5 psi. ESS says their S/C makes full boost by 2200 RPM, while TT says they make full boost "well before" 3000.

It seems like generally people are voting TT over ESS but they are near the same price and ESS seems to offer more. Also with the ESS S/C option you can still do headers/high flow cat to realize further gains. Why do so many suggest TT over ESS? Are ESS's HP claims exaggerated? Thanks for any input.

Last edited by jon-k; 12-03-2013 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:37 PM   #2
daemonicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon-k View Post
I have done lots of searching on the subject. Here are some useful links for others interested in the topic:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=775044
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=828666

I have a specific question though. One of the general advantages touted for turbo over supercharger is that a turbo'd car will make more power on the same amount of boost. Why then does it seem that the ESS TS2 makes more power? TT claims 50% increase in power. This would make approx 277 BHP on a 325i. ESS claims 320 BHP on a 325i. Both run 8.5 psi. ESS says their S/C makes full boost by 2200 RPM, while TT says they make full boost "well before" 3000.

It seems like generally people are voting TT over ESS but they are near the same price and ESS seems to offer more. Also with the ESS S/C option you can still do headers/high flow cat to realize further gains. Why do so many suggest TT over ESS? Are ESS's HP claims exaggerated? Thanks for any input.
your math is a little off for power on the TT kit. this is a dyno graph from a 325 turbo done by Nick G. keep in mind, it's also done on a mustang dyno so the numbers are lower than a dynojet, which makes the kit just that much better.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachm...7&d=1299965394

and here's his build thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...ight=325+turbo
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Old 12-03-2013, 03:43 PM   #3
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ESS TS2 Supercharger VS TT Stage 1 Turbo

with the same amount of money, im sure you can do s54 swap...and thats instantly 300 HP...maybe cost less


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Old 12-04-2013, 01:51 PM   #4
jon-k
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Originally Posted by daemonicus View Post
your math is a little off for power on the TT kit. this is a dyno graph from a 325 turbo done by Nick G. keep in mind, it's also done on a mustang dyno so the numbers are lower than a dynojet, which makes the kit just that much better.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/attachm...7&d=1299965394

and here's his build thread

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthr...ight=325+turbo
So basically is seems like the two kits make about the same peak power/tq but the s/c will make full boost faster. Is there an advantage to the turbo that I am missing?

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Originally Posted by indoafro View Post
with the same amount of money, im sure you can do s54 swap...and thats instantly 300 HP...maybe cost less


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I guess I haven't considered this option. Ill do some research on this.
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Old 12-04-2013, 02:12 PM   #5
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The way it boils down to me is that a turbo is initially much more complex of a system, whereas an SC is more or lessa bolt on.

HHowever, when you start to really push the two setups, the turbo will go further for less money.

I absolutely love my twin screw setup, but it's also the least financially wise decision I've probably ever made. I kept wanting more and more boost, and my 328 is special to me (bought an E46 M3, very different type of engine and very fun). I have built my M52 from the bottom up, hundreds of man hours in labor and custom machine work, an entirely new and different Lysholm blower to support boost in excess of 14psi, M3 rear end and a lot of custom drive train parts (plus 6MT swap, OS Giken LSD, etc), custom front mounted heat exchanger, and so on and so forth. It has been years of constant changes and tweaks, not to mention the costs of ancillary parts such as 3 different BBK (StopTech E46 4whl, StopTech Trophy for the M3 hubs, and now Performance Friction 4w M3 race kit), custom body work to fit the width of tire I want without looking like a "stanced" ride, etc. Oh, and a second suspension refresh that involved stripping everything from the chassis and replacing all bushings/mounts again w AKG and TMS semi-solid/high-density ones, going through a few sets of coil overs, more reinforcements on top of the TMS ones, fitting the whole rear Mason Engineering strut brace + diff Brace + X-brace, and on and on.

Would I have done it differently? Yeah, and I would have saved a LOT of money. Am I happy with the results? Absolutely!

I simply don't think that there is a better match for the M52TU than a Lysholm blower, having that insanely flat torque curve and linear power to redline (I am still making power at 8krpm, but that required extensive work in and of itself). Yet, because I did this with actually slightly higher than stock CR, I don't have any loss of power anywhere, even when the blower isn't engaged.

For the same amount of money, I would easily be pushing another 300bhp via turbo, but I can't stand turbo lag, plus the TS SC has never given me a single problem, and that's with a lot of track time and 38k miles road time.

However, I have to say that it is not a decision I would make without experiencing both firsthand.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:18 PM   #6
jon-k
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Originally Posted by nleksan View Post
The way it boils down to me is that a turbo is initially much more complex of a system, whereas an SC is more or lessa bolt on.

HHowever, when you start to really push the two setups, the turbo will go further for less money.

I absolutely love my twin screw setup, but it's also the least financially wise decision I've probably ever made. I kept wanting more and more boost, and my 328 is special to me (bought an E46 M3, very different type of engine and very fun). I have built my M52 from the bottom up, hundreds of man hours in labor and custom machine work, an entirely new and different Lysholm blower to support boost in excess of 14psi, M3 rear end and a lot of custom drive train parts (plus 6MT swap, OS Giken LSD, etc), custom front mounted heat exchanger, and so on and so forth. It has been years of constant changes and tweaks, not to mention the costs of ancillary parts such as 3 different BBK (StopTech E46 4whl, StopTech Trophy for the M3 hubs, and now Performance Friction 4w M3 race kit), custom body work to fit the width of tire I want without looking like a "stanced" ride, etc. Oh, and a second suspension refresh that involved stripping everything from the chassis and replacing all bushings/mounts again w AKG and TMS semi-solid/high-density ones, going through a few sets of coil overs, more reinforcements on top of the TMS ones, fitting the whole rear Mason Engineering strut brace + diff Brace + X-brace, and on and on.

Would I have done it differently? Yeah, and I would have saved a LOT of money. Am I happy with the results? Absolutely!

I simply don't think that there is a better match for the M52TU than a Lysholm blower, having that insanely flat torque curve and linear power to redline (I am still making power at 8krpm, but that required extensive work in and of itself). Yet, because I did this with actually slightly higher than stock CR, I don't have any loss of power anywhere, even when the blower isn't engaged.

For the same amount of money, I would easily be pushing another 300bhp via turbo, but I can't stand turbo lag, plus the TS SC has never given me a single problem, and that's with a lot of track time and 38k miles road time.

However, I have to say that it is not a decision I would make without experiencing both firsthand.
Thanks, that was helpful. I see what you mean. So basically if I want a setup that will give me ~330 BHP and I will be satisfied I should just go with the S/C (or for that matter, maybe an s54 swap). If I want something that has more potential if I want to continue improving it, the turbo is a system that gives me room to grow.
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Old 12-04-2013, 04:22 PM   #7
indoafro
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ESS TS2 Supercharger VS TT Stage 1 Turbo

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Originally Posted by jon-k View Post
Thanks, that was helpful. I see what you mean. So basically if I want a setup that will give me ~330 BHP and I will be satisfied I should just go with the S/C (or for that matter, maybe an s54 swap). If I want something that has more potential if I want to continue improving it, the turbo is a system that gives me room to grow.
dont forget buddy, an s54 swap with a propper tunning can push arround 330 hp at wheels...so if you want to improving more and more, i think s54 is a good to go...let see s54 swap = 330hp ish, you want more ? than you can put turbo, twin turbo, sc on it...in another thing is s54 race and aftermarket parts is more than our cars (non m car)


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Old 12-04-2013, 05:20 PM   #8
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However with a s54 swap, you have to deal with a lot more and is much more complex than a bolt on supercharger kit or turbo install. But then again, the ability to grow is also much more.

And I don't know of any tuning that provides a stock s54 with 330 hp at the wheels. Most stock M3's put around 280's to the wheels. Tuning does not account for 50 horsepower.
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:28 PM   #9
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I'm definitely looking into the s54 option. I know it might be more complicated but I thinkl I could do it. I've done swaps before (though on much older/simpler cars). I want to make sure I'll be able to integrate with the rest of the vehicle electronics without problems (ie working ABS, DSC, ect). I guess I have some s54 swap threads to read. If I go that route would it make sense to get it with a 6 spd manual to replace my 5 spd?
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:04 PM   #10
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Still trying to find a dyno curve to compare the ESS but I'm leaning either TT or s54. Trying to decide if I really want to screw around with all the key/DME/EWS issues. Thanks for all the good input.

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Old 12-06-2013, 11:08 AM   #11
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Name:	dyno.png
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ID:	537370
I only got an ESS stage 1 for 325. It made 243 on a mustang dyno. Ignore the scrambled data, the dyno was picking up some interference and also I rolled on the throttle too slow (my first ever dyno pull).
The stage 2 will look the same, torque curve will just sit higher. Based on this you can see the torque curve is also pretty flat but the SC has an advantage between 2500 and 3500. It also probably has slightly better throttle response compared to a turbo.
You can't go wrong with either kit. Maybe ask both companies what it would take to move the kit to m54b30. You WILL want more power and swapping the block is prety cheap way to get it (check my sig).
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Old 12-07-2013, 11:58 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jon-k View Post
Still trying to find a dyno curve to compare the ESS but I'm leaning either TT or s54. Trying to decide if I really want to screw around with all the key/DME/EWS issues. Thanks for all the good input.
go with the TT kit, set aside a weekend and a buddy to help, and drive away with your brand new, basically OEM turbo'd, 325.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:27 AM   #13
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Attachment 537370
I only got an ESS stage 1 for 325. It made 243 on a mustang dyno. Ignore the scrambled data, the dyno was picking up some interference and also I rolled on the throttle too slow (my first ever dyno pull).
The stage 2 will look the same, torque curve will just sit higher. Based on this you can see the torque curve is also pretty flat but the SC has an advantage between 2500 and 3500. It also probably has slightly better throttle response compared to a turbo.
You can't go wrong with either kit. Maybe ask both companies what it would take to move the kit to m54b30. You WILL want more power and swapping the block is prety cheap way to get it (check my sig).
Awesome wagon build my friend. If the itch for more power still exists maybe a b30 (or a build of my b25?) might be the plan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonicus View Post
go with the TT kit, set aside a weekend and a buddy to help, and drive away with your brand new, basically OEM turbo'd, 325.
Im feeling the same way. If compression and leak down tests check out look for my build thread this summer!

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Old 12-10-2013, 01:49 PM   #14
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Technique Tuning's kit rocks.

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Old 12-10-2013, 10:19 PM   #15
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^^^ +1. Great kit.
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:37 AM   #16
jon-k
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Technique Tuning's kit rocks.

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Sweet build man. Question, the kit says it has everything but it looks like you bought a boost controller separately. Is that optional? Is the wastegate that the kit comes with spring controlled?


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^^^ +1. Great kit.
Sorry about what happened to yours man. Are you going to build another E46? What are you driving now?
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:16 PM   #17
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Sweet build man. Question, the kit says it has everything but it looks like you bought a boost controller separately. Is that optional? Is the wastegate that the kit comes with spring controlled?
Thanks! It's slowly coming along.

Yes, it comes with a 6 lb spring by default. I'm running 8.5 psi.

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Old 12-31-2013, 05:50 AM   #18
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Question

Iam between these two also...
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:34 AM   #19
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the SC has an advantage between 2500 and 3500.
Do you have any data that supports this comparison?
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:17 PM   #20
pokeybritches
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ESS TS2 Supercharger VS TT Stage 1 Turbo

Do you want to hear the supercharger whine or a turbo spool every time you stomp the gas? Will turbo lag bother you? What about the single O2 sensor conversion that isn't quite as smooth as OEM? Or conversely, the fact that turbos making the same power are usually a little easier on the drivetrain because the lag doesn't shock the drivetrain like the instant hit of a twin screw supercharger.

Don't get so caught up in the numbers that you forget what it's about - fun. What would you be most happy living with every day? I promise you the sound it makes is going to make a bigger difference than whether full boost comes on at 2600 rpm vs 2800 rpm. Numbers are nice for comparison purposes (or bragging) but they aren't an end all. Once you're able to accept that someone will always be faster, do whatever will give you the most satisfaction in the end.


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