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Old 01-28-2014, 07:42 AM   #61
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Just remember, rdsesq is on your side of the political spectrum. Of course on my side is that twit women candidate that thinks autism is punishment for gays or whatever, so I feel your embarrassment!
"my side"? Praytell, what is "my side" of the political spectrum?
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:14 AM   #62
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The "wrong" side.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:22 AM   #63
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He thinks you're Democratic?
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:18 PM   #64
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Whatever.

Of course morality exists, and you don't need quotation marks around it.


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Morality is nothing more than a perception of something being "right" or "wrong". You have admitted that morality is subjective, yet morality is by its own definition supposed to absolute. So you are now talking about something that is a subjective (or changeable) absolute. Morality does not exist, the delusion of morality exists, I will freely grant you that. But, morality itself, no it does not. Hence the need for the quotes.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:34 PM   #65
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Morality is nothing more than a perception of something being "right" or "wrong". You have admitted that morality is subjective, yet morality is by its own definition supposed to absolute. So you are now talking about something that is a subjective (or changeable) absolute. Morality does not exist, the delusion of morality exists, I will freely grant you that. But, morality itself, no it does not. Hence the need for the quotes.
"emotion", "feelings", "ethics", "opinions" all fall into your same basket of "imaginary" things.

Morality most certainly exists, whether you believe in it or not. There are no universal mores, however, as they differ from person to person and culture to culture.

Who says morality is absolute? Where on earth are you getting that idea from? Yes, some people may belive they have the absolute word on what is right and wrong, but that doesn't mean they're correct.
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Old 01-28-2014, 12:43 PM   #66
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"emotion", "feelings", "ethics", "opinions" all fall into your same basket of "imaginary" things.

Morality most certainly exists, whether you believe in it or not. There are no universal mores, however, as they differ from person to person and culture to culture.

Who says morality is absolute? Where on earth are you getting that idea from? Yes, some people may belive they have the absolute word on what is right and wrong, but that doesn't mean they're correct.
Morality is defined either through consequences or intentions.

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Old 01-29-2014, 12:27 AM   #67
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"emotion", "feelings", "ethics", "opinions" all fall into your same basket of "imaginary" things.
Yes. And your point would be?

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Morality most certainly exists, whether you believe in it or not. There are no universal mores, however, as they differ from person to person and culture to culture.

Who says morality is absolute? Where on earth are you getting that idea from? Yes, some people may belive they have the absolute word on what is right and wrong, but that doesn't mean they're correct.
Let us look at this rationally for just a moment.

Person A's morality says: X is right and Y is wrong
Person B's morality says: X is wrong and Y is right.
Person C's morality says: X is right and Y is right.
Person D's morality says: X is wrong and Y is wrong.

Is X right or wrong? Is Y right or wrong? They cannot objectively be both right and wrong at the same time.

Ergo the "morality" of either X or Y cancel themselves out. Hence the are of no relevance.

If morality does exist, which I acknowledge only out of politeness, it is of no account and what is of no account is as naught.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:53 AM   #68
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Yes. And your point would be?



Let us look at this rationally for just a moment.

Person A's morality says: X is right and Y is wrong
Person B's morality says: X is wrong and Y is right.
Person C's morality says: X is right and Y is right.
Person D's morality says: X is wrong and Y is wrong.

Is X right or wrong? Is Y right or wrong? They cannot objectively be both right and wrong at the same time.

Ergo the "morality" of either X or Y cancel themselves out. Hence the are of no relevance.

If morality does exist, which I acknowledge only out of politeness, it is of no account and what is of no account is as naught.
That's a pretty arrogant thought pattern. Why are you even bothering to share your opinion on the matter if you're trying to argue that opinions are "as of naught"?




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Old 01-29-2014, 05:03 AM   #69
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Subjectivity does not equal non-existent.

But if you really want to get down to brass tacks, you can go back to the Cartesian "I think therefore I am". There are no facts, you can't prove anything actually exists other than yourself, and not even that far, just your consciousness.

Go have fun with yourself.


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Old 01-29-2014, 05:16 AM   #70
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Subjectivity does not equal non-existent.

But if you really want to get down to brass tacks, you can go back to the Cartesian "I think therefore I am". There are no facts, you can't prove anything actually exists other than yourself, and not even that far, just your consciousness.

Go have fun with yourself.


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lol


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Old 01-29-2014, 05:32 AM   #71
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You think you sound like some kind of lofty dr manhattan "I have the perspective of the cosmos" bullsh1t position, but in reality you just sound like a seven year old who has yet to develop the ability to think abstractly.


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Old 01-29-2014, 08:19 AM   #72
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I really do dislike when people try to spill their morals on me though. In a sense, it feels like other people are trying to mentally entrap you with their beliefs. rdsesq brings up some good points.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:22 AM   #73
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You think you sound like some kind of lofty dr manhattan "I have the perspective of the cosmos" bullsh1t position, but in reality you just sound like a seven year old who has yet to develop the ability to think abstractly.


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So what do you think of Nietzsche' master/slave morality?
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:43 AM   #74
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I really do dislike when people try to spill their morals on me though. In a sense, it feels like other people are trying to mentally entrap you with their beliefs. rdsesq brings up some good points.
not really. His point is that morals don't exist because they're not objective/cannot be objectively measured. From his lofty cosmic perspective, that may be true to the extent that they are insignificant (everything is insignificant from that viewpoint, but it doesn't mean that everything is non-existant), but here on earth where the real people live, subjectivity is king. Perception is reality.

Morality is definitely subjective, but then again, so are a lot of things. Subjectivity does equate to non-existance.

Think of it as an opinion. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, just like everyone has their own sense of what is right and wrong. It's your opinion that Sam Adams Boston Lager is a really good beer, I on the other hand think it tastes crap. There's no objective measurement for this. You can tell me about the IBUs, the hop/barley balance, the lager characteristics, and all the awards it's won, but you're not going to convince me that I should like SABL. It's a matter subjective opinion. This also doesn't mean that my liking or disliking of SABL is irrelevant and that I should drink it anyway because it's an award-winning beer.

I understand what you're saying, though. You don't want me to push my beer choice on you when you've told me you dislike what I'm offering.

I'm just saying that both of our tastes matter, and are equally valid. Dr manhattan up there is saying that you don't actually have taste because it's different from mine.
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Old 01-29-2014, 08:44 AM   #75
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So what do you think of Nietzsche' master/slave morality?
I honestly never got in to Nietzsche.

After a quick wikipedia crash course...

I think actions need to be judged in both terms of consequences and intentions. An act with good intentions but evil consequences does not need to be dealt with in the same way as an act with evil intentions and evil consequences. An act with evil intentions and good consequences still needs to be corrected. The world is not a black and white place where we can afford to judge based solely on results or solely on intentions. I also don't see it as a "weak" vs "strong" mentality, as the two words are too vague to really impart any value or meaning. You may view it as strong to act with an "ends justify the means" mentality, others would view it as weak in a logical or humanist or moral sense.

Nietzsche was a big proponent of the self being the only objective measure available, and anything that is bad for self is therefore objectively bad. I'd say that people have moved beyond that, and have concerns at the family and society level as well. For instance, not eating is bad for me, but if I have to skip a meal so that my kids can eat, that's a good thing.

You may argue that it's my own selfish desires to see my progeny do well that are causing me to do that, and therefore it's a good for me anyway, but I disagree. I don't believe that all people act for only subconscious selfish desires
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:07 AM   #76
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I honestly never got in to Nietzsche.

After a quick wikipedia crash course...

I think actions need to be judged in both terms of consequences and intentions. An act with good intentions but evil consequences does not need to be dealt with in the same way as an act with evil intentions and evil consequences. An act with evil intentions and good consequences still needs to be corrected. The world is not a black and white place where we can afford to judge based solely on results or solely on intentions. I also don't see it as a "weak" vs "strong" mentality, as the two words are too vague to really impart any value or meaning. You may view it as strong to act with an "ends justify the means" mentality, others would view it as weak in a logical or humanist or moral sense.

Nietzsche was a big proponent of the self being the only objective measure available, and anything that is bad for self is therefore objectively bad. I'd say that people have moved beyond that, and have concerns at the family and society level as well. For instance, not eating is bad for me, but if I have to skip a meal so that my kids can eat, that's a good thing.

You may argue that it's my own selfish desires to see my progeny do well that are causing me to do that, and therefore it's a good for me anyway, but I disagree. I don't believe that all people act for only subconscious selfish desires
I like this response and inclined to agree.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:08 AM   #77
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:41 PM   #78
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That's a pretty arrogant thought pattern. Why are you even bothering to share your opinion on the matter if you're trying to argue that opinions are "as of naught"?
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Subjectivity does not equal non-existent.

But if you really want to get down to brass tacks, you can go back to the Cartesian "I think therefore I am". There are no facts, you can't prove anything actually exists other than yourself, and not even that far, just your consciousness.

Go have fun with yourself.
Actually, the basis of the argument comes from deSade, who over 100 years before Nietzsche claimed "god is dead", made the statement that this god, even if he existed, for the sake of argument only, was irrelevant. (See deSade's notebook of July 12th 1782)

It is the basis of a philosophy of libertinage.

I will stick to what I said:
You are now talking about something that is a subjective (or changeable) absolute. Morality does not exist, the delusion of morality exists, I will freely grant you that. (I will even be polite and call it the illusion of morality.) But, "morality" itself, no it does not. Hence the need for the quotes.

"Morality" is subjective and as such Haidt's entire supposition is predicated on the concept that morality exists and is a good thing. Since "morality" is a perception, and not an objective fact, Haidt can accumulate any data he wants, it is still anecdotal no matter the sample size, the premise is flawed, biased, and non-objective.

Haidt's work is merely a sampling of what he perceives emotions and "morality" to be. It is an opinion and nothing more. Not based on any true scientific evidence. That is the crux of the point i am making.
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:47 PM   #79
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Again, who says morality has to be an absolute?
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Old 01-29-2014, 12:48 PM   #80
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You think you sound like some kind of lofty dr manhattan "I have the perspective of the cosmos" bullsh1t position, but in reality you just sound like a seven year old who has yet to develop the ability to think abstractly.
Perhaps it is you, not I, who are not thinking abstractly enough.

But, that is just my opinion, so it is as of naught.
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