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Old 01-29-2014, 02:01 PM   #81
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Again, who says morality has to be an absolute?
Well when you compare it to the context of other theories and laws in nature...
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:02 PM   #82
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Again, who says morality has to be an absolute?
Let us look at this from the side of your argument. That morality exists but different people may have different morals.

You have a morality that X is right. Are you going to say that according to your morality X is also wrong? If not, than even in the individual case of your personal morality. X being right is still an absolute.

"Morality" is therefore an absolute, even if it is a different absolute value to someone else. Something cannot objectively have two different absolute values.

So while Haidt's work deals in "morality". The value of the absolute value of the morality he defines as a measure has multiple absolute values. This does not hold up to scientific scrutiny.

Is the melting point of gold 1,948°F AND 1,362°F AND 2,327°F all at the same time? I think not.
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:17 PM   #83
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Let us look at this from the side of your argument. That morality exists but different people may have different morals.

You have a morality that X is right. Are you going to say that according to your morality X is also wrong? If not, than even in the individual case of your personal morality. X being right is still an absolute.

"Morality" is therefore an absolute, even if it is a different absolute value to someone else. Something cannot objectively have two different absolute values.

So while Haidt's work deals in "morality". The value of the absolute value of the morality he defines as a measure has multiple absolute values. This does not hold up to scientific scrutiny.

Is the melting point of gold 1,948°F AND 1,362°F AND 2,327°F all at the same time? I think not.
Here's what you fail to grasp: morality is not an absolute. It is an opinion, and a perspective. It changes from person to person, time to time, place to place. Anyone that says morality is an absolute is lying or naive.

Right and wrong cannot be objectively measured like your boiling point of gold. There is no inherent right or wrong, right and wrong are what we attribute to things/actions/motives/etc based upon our own individual interpretations.

That subjectivity, though, again, doesn't make morality non-existant. Everyone has a sense of what is right and wrong, that is morality.
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:41 PM   #84
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Let us look at this from the side of your argument. That morality exists but different people may have different morals.

You have a morality that X is right. Are you going to say that according to your morality X is also wrong? If not, than even in the individual case of your personal morality. X being right is still an absolute.

"Morality" is therefore an absolute, even if it is a different absolute value to someone else. Something cannot objectively have two different absolute values.

So while Haidt's work deals in "morality". The value of the absolute value of the morality he defines as a measure has multiple absolute values. This does not hold up to scientific scrutiny.

Is the melting point of gold 1,948°F AND 1,362°F AND 2,327°F all at the same time? I think not.
Aren't you an athiest? I wouldn't think you'd hold a realist/normative idea of morality in that case.

That's what you're arguing against, though, and apparently how you view morality.

If you want to go that route, then yes, we can agree that there is no normative morality, in the sense that there is not an absolute, universal answer to what is always right and what is always wrong.

But that's not the only sense of morality.

There is descriptive morality, which refers to personal and cultural values, there's also moral anti-realism. In contrast, moral realism states that moral statements are statments of objective moral facts. Anti-realism says that moral statements do not attempt to describe objective moral facts, or falsely identify them. Also included in anti-realism is the idea of ethical subjectivism and non-cognitivism.

But, really, if the only place you take a moral education from is religion, then as an athiest, I can completely understand why you would argue against its existence.
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Old 01-29-2014, 02:46 PM   #85
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Here's what you fail to grasp: morality is not an absolute. It is an opinion, and a perspective. It changes from person to person, time to time, place to place. Anyone that says morality is an absolute is lying or naive.

Right and wrong cannot be objectively measured like your boiling point of gold. There is no inherent right or wrong, right and wrong are what we attribute to things/actions/motives/etc based upon our own individual interpretations.

That subjectivity, though, again, doesn't make morality non-existant. Everyone has a sense of what is right and wrong, that is morality.
Thank you for proving deSade's fundamental point. Even if morality (without the quotes) exists, it still is of no account since it is only relative to any specific individual at any particular moment. It is therefore of no account and as such is as naught.

Even if it does exist, it matters not. So if it doesn't matter if it exists or not, then, for all practical purposes, it doesn't exist.

QED

Not to mention that Haidt's basic premise is fundamentally flawed as a scientific measure. You certainly would concur with that, would you not?
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:00 PM   #86
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Aren't you an athiest? I wouldn't think you'd hold a realist/normative idea of morality in that case.

That's what you're arguing against, though, and apparently how you view morality.

If you want to go that route, then yes, we can agree that there is no normative morality, in the sense that there is not an absolute, universal answer to what is always right and what is always wrong.

But that's not the only sense of morality.

There is descriptive morality, which refers to personal and cultural values, there's also moral anti-realism. In contrast, moral realism states that moral statements are statments of objective moral facts. Anti-realism says that moral statements do not attempt to describe objective moral facts, or falsely identify them. Also included in anti-realism is the idea of ethical subjectivism and non-cognitivism.

But, really, if the only place you take a moral education from is religion, then as an athiest, I can completely understand why you would argue against its existence.
As an atheist and a libertine, I hold that the premise of morality is flawed. Morals are merely an illusion. (Or a delusion, to be blunt) The belief that they exist is simply a false construct, much like religion, based on an illusory compulsion to grasp that there is some right or wrong. That construct is defined by someone else for their benefit. Not dissimilar to the idea of life after death. It may help some people cope, but, dead is dead. No matter how you slice it.

"Morals" may be a sup to some people, but, that does not mean they exist. Merely that some people wish to believe they exist. Those are two different things.

There is no god, however, if people wish to believe there is more power to them. Knock your socks off. Have at it, mate. But, don't be so absurd as to think I will join with you and certainly don't attempt to legislate laws based on this absurd premise. That is just tacky.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:10 PM   #87
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Thank you for proving deSade's fundamental point. Even if morality (without the quotes) exists, it still is of no account since it is only relative to any specific individual at any particular moment. It is therefore of no account and as such is as naught.

Even if it does exist, it matters not. So if it doesn't matter if it exists or not, then, for all practical purposes, it doesn't exist.

QED

Not to mention that Haidt's basic premise is fundamentally flawed as a scientific measure. You certainly would concur with that, would you not?
I would not call his study a scientifically sound study, but more of an interesting thought exercise.

I would also not call that which is subjective to be insignificant. Again, for someone who sets themselves apart/above from all others around them (looking at you, francoise), yes, the subjective would be insignificant to them. De Sade was too wrapped up in the pursuit of his own worldly pleasures. In his opinion, the world exists for the pleasure of oneself, and can be treated as such without retribution. He supported democracy, but disdained the law (wonder why that is...). He's an early Crowley, and just as much an oddball.

But living apart from the world is a sh!tty place to be. Those of us who live in the world and with the people around us understand that the subjective is typically the most important.
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:37 PM   #88
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I would not call his study a scientifically sound study, but more of an interesting thought exercise.

I would also not call that which is subjective to be insignificant. Again, for someone who sets themselves apart/above from all others around them (looking at you, francoise), yes, the subjective would be insignificant to them. De Sade was too wrapped up in the pursuit of his own worldly pleasures. In his opinion, the world exists for the pleasure of oneself, and can be treated as such without retribution. He supported democracy, but disdained the law (wonder why that is...). He's an early Crowley, and just as much an oddball.

But living apart from the world is a sh!tty place to be. Those of us who live in the world and with the people around us understand that the subjective is typically the most important.
Out of curiosity, how much of deSade's works have you actually read?
DeSade is nothing like Crowley accept that both were shunned by the social conservatives of their time. DeSade did not believe in magic or the spiritual. Crowley was merely another victorian who chose to reject victorian morays in favor of those which made sex more available. Nothing more. He is a libertine "wanna-be" that never had the balls to embrace libertinage and instead embraced as restrictive a world view as those he was rejecting, just in a form they found offensive.

If deSade is such an "oddball", than why is it that he and his works survive and thrive to this day, and, the further we adapt to a more atheistic and less sexually repressive society, the more he is embraced? DeSade was a man of vision. A man ahead of his time much in the same vein as Leonardo was. He saw things in a different way. Life in a different context. He explored that context even though it was forbidden and illegal at the time.

But, it is far easier to just look at a small subset of his work and have your "morals" define him as an oddball. Such is your prerogative. Keep your "morals", they seem to make you content. I will gladly ignore them because I don't give a rats a$$ about them or you. Nothing personal.
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Old 01-29-2014, 05:50 PM   #89
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De Sade was a sociopath with an audience. His writings justified to himself his own allegedly perverse lifestyle.


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Old 01-29-2014, 05:51 PM   #90
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Next you'll start talking about how great Nero and Caligula were.


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Old 01-29-2014, 07:34 PM   #91
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De Sade was a sociopath with an audience. His writings justified to himself his own allegedly perverse lifestyle.
DeSade was a philosopher. OK, you don't approve of the philosophy. So what. I don't think he cared, and neither do I. The philosophy was not acceptable to the "morality" of the 18th, 19th, 20th, (and it would seem to some) the 21st century. But, it slowly is embraced more and more. DeSade's philosophy is the future. And I couldn't be happier about that.

And, you say "sociopath" like it's a bad thing.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:02 PM   #92
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I am a staunch Libertarian/internet/keyboard warrior and am wanting an internet fight tonight.

I know how to cite sources and use big words. Take your best shot shitlibs.
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:25 PM   #93
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I am a staunch Libertarian/internet/keyboard warrior and am wanting an internet fight tonight.

I know how to cite sources and use big words. Take your best shot shitlibs.
Please do. Nova and rdsesq have killed my awesome thread and you sound like just the guy to save it. March on, soldier!
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Old 01-29-2014, 09:39 PM   #94
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Please do. Nova and rdsesq have killed my awesome thread and you sound like just the guy to save it. March on, soldier!
Libs always think they have a superior argument, until pesky things like Economics and Macro-Finance get in the way. Then they resort to the

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You hate poor/women/minorities/gays/transgender/etc., etc.,
Stupid people.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:49 PM   #95
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I am a staunch Libertarian/internet/keyboard warrior and am wanting an internet fight tonight.

I know how to cite sources and use big words. Take your best shot shitlibs.
Perhaps learn the proper context of liberal. Another "culture" warrior?
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:52 PM   #96
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Perhaps learn the proper context of liberal. Another "culture" warrior?
Liberal as compared to which definition?

American Liberalism is dramatically different than neo-classic liberalism, to which I subscribe.

And no, not a culture warrior. I would imagine you are more of a culture warrior than I, and when pressed as to why, will default back upon "we have a historical obligation" or something stupid schtick like that.
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:56 PM   #97
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Liberal as compared to which definition?

American Liberalism is dramatically different than neo-classic liberalism, to which I subscribe.

And no, not a culture warrior. I would imagine you are more of a culture warrior than I, and when pressed as to why, will default back upon "we have a historical obligation" or something stupid schtick like that.


go on...
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Old 01-29-2014, 11:58 PM   #98
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go on...
So you have nothing to say.

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Old 01-29-2014, 11:59 PM   #99
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So you have nothing to say.

Only that we have a historical obligation. But you already knew that.

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Old 01-30-2014, 12:00 AM   #100
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Only that we have a historical obligation.
Well played.
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