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Old 02-05-2014, 01:06 PM   #21
NFRs2000nyc
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This is the crux of the issue, for me. Yes, they are voluntarily leaving the workforce so that they don't lose their public benefits. I see this as similar to the taxpayers subsidizing companies minimum wage workers.
Both are wrong.
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:37 PM   #22
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Both are wrong.
Agreed.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:48 PM   #23
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Fox News cites CBO to say Obamacare will cut the number of full-time jobs. Actually, jobs don't get cut and the CBO wasn't talking about full-time positions. We say Mostly False http://bit.ly/LQLcB3

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Old 02-05-2014, 03:53 PM   #24
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If we are citing Politifact --

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ou-could-keep/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-plan-keep-it/

and

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...e-forces-peop/
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:54 PM   #25
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Fox News cites CBO to say Obamacare will cut the number of full-time jobs. Actually, jobs don't get cut and the CBO wasn't talking about full-time positions. We say Mostly False http://bit.ly/LQLcB3

From your link...

Quote:
Our ruling

Carlson said that the CBO predicts that Obamacare will cut the number of full-time jobs by 2.3 million. The word "cut" sends the message that jobs are being taken away, but that's not the case. On top of that, the statement confuses the number of jobs with the number of workers, and more specifically, the number of hours worked. The CBO said the health care law will give more people an incentive to reduce their hours; some will limit their hours and some will stop working altogether by their own choice. The law would not push up unemployment.

It can be easy to miss the distinction between jobs and workers, but the statement remains flawed. We rate the claim Mostly False.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:56 PM   #26
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Is that related at all to the topic? Want to start a Politifact thread?
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From your link...
It's my link. I know. I read it.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:57 PM   #27
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Is that related at all to the topic? Want to start a Politifact thread?
Yes, all three deal directly with Obamacare, which is not only the topic of this thread, but it is also from an identical source as you cited.

If my sources shouldn't be in here, than neither should yours.
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Old 02-05-2014, 03:59 PM   #28
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Yes, all three deal directly with Obamacare, which is not only the topic of this thread, but it is also from an identical source as you cited.

If my sources shouldn't be in here, than neither should yours.
Obamacare is a broad topic. This thread deals specifically with the CBO statements about ~2 million jobs.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:00 PM   #29
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Obamacare is a broad topic. This thread deals specifically with the CBO statements about ~2 million jobs.
Fine, touché. Well played.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:12 PM   #30
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Cut hours added together to make 40 hours can be construed as "a job"......either way, take home pay shrinks, saving shrinks, investing shrinks, hiring shrinks, economy suffers. You can play semantics all day long.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:16 PM   #31
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Cut hours added together to make 40 hours can be construed as "a job"......either way, take home pay shrinks, saving shrinks, investing shrinks, hiring shrinks, economy suffers. You can play semantics all day long.
If these are people who are voluntarily leaving the work force or reducing their hours because they no longer need to work a full time job just to get some healthcare, their take home pay must be sufficient, and their jobs or hours will be made up by people who want to work. Their take home pay rises, savings rises, investing rises, hiring increases and the economy improves. Voila.
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Old 02-05-2014, 04:37 PM   #32
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Cut hours added together to make 40 hours can be construed as "a job"......either way, take home pay shrinks, saving shrinks, investing shrinks, hiring shrinks, economy suffers. You can play semantics all day long.
Right, and this opens up the possibility for a worker with no job to take over those unworked hours. A lot of people don't want or need full time jobs, and even for those that do being part of the workforce is better than being long term unemployed. It's a lot easier for most people to go from part time to full time than unemployed to either.


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Old 02-05-2014, 04:45 PM   #33
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I was reading Reuters yesterday and I saw an article about how Obamacare will effectively cut over 2 million jobs. Got on e46 and was about to post it. Then I said to myself, "Self, OT has had enough with this Obamacare madness. Everyone is getting along without it."
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Old 02-05-2014, 08:39 PM   #34
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If these are people who are voluntarily leaving the work force or reducing their hours because they no longer need to work a full time job just to get some healthcare, their take home pay must be sufficient, and their jobs or hours will be made up by people who want to work. Their take home pay rises, savings rises, investing rises, hiring increases and the economy improves. Voila.
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Right, and this opens up the possibility for a worker with no job to take over those unworked hours. A lot of people don't want or need full time jobs, and even for those that do being part of the workforce is better than being long term unemployed. It's a lot easier for most people to go from part time to full time than unemployed to either.


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It is extremely apparent that neither of you run or ever ran a business.

Back here in the real world, the missed 1-2 hours a day will be made up by other employees (workload.) That does NOT mean another worker will be hired to fill in the small void. It's not like ALL employees are going to take off for an hour a day, consecutively, making an 8 hour daily opening. I said this over a year ago when we discussed Obamacare, well before these CBO numbers.

Even IF you two were right, your scenario would open up the floodgates for even more people to be reliant on government, but it's no surprise you think thats a good thing.
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:28 PM   #35
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It is extremely apparent that neither of you run or ever ran a business.

Back here in the real world, the missed 1-2 hours a day will be made up by other employees (workload.) That does NOT mean another worker will be hired to fill in the small void. It's not like ALL employees are going to take off for an hour a day, consecutively, making an 8 hour daily opening. I said this over a year ago when we discussed Obamacare, well before these CBO numbers.

Even IF you two were right, your scenario would open up the floodgates for even more people to be reliant on government, but it's no surprise you think thats a good thing.
This makes no sense. If the hours are being made up by existing hourly employees, on average some part time employees are going to become full time as others shift to part time. Unless what you're suggesting is that salary workers will take over for all of the hourlies switching to part time, and work the extra hours for no additional compensation.

The void isn't small when it involves millions of workers. You seem to be thinking of it only in narrow terms as it would apply to a mom and pop deli counter or something similar size.



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Old 02-06-2014, 01:38 PM   #36
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This makes no sense. If the hours are being made up by existing hourly employees, on average some part time employees are going to become full time as others shift to part time. Unless what you're suggesting is that salary workers will take over for all of the hourlies switching to part time, and work the extra hours for no additional compensation.

The void isn't small when it involves millions of workers. You seem to be thinking of it only in narrow terms as it would apply to a mom and pop deli counter or something similar size.



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The point in question (slicing hours to get a better deal on Obamacare voluntarily) will generally be coming from the lower rung on the ladder jobs. This isn't going to be the engineers, the CPAs, doctors, etc....(or anyone on salary.) This will be the Walmart worker, the Mcdonalds worker, etc.

Generally speaking, the small slices in hours (3-4 weekly hours for an employee per week or about an hour a day) spread over only a few employees is not going to create a full time position (due to the gap). It will only require a little slack picked up (much like if an employee at mcdonalds got sick in the middle of their shift). Some VERY large retailers like Walmart MAY be able to fill a position, but again, hiring full time employees isn't worth it for them, and the employees don't want a full time position because they can get a better rate in the exchanges if they don't work as much (square 1). So it becomes a huge circle jerk. Why would you want to work 40 hours when if you work 30, you get free health insurance? It makes no sense, I know I wouldn't. If my employer told me Dave, if you work 5 hours a week less, you'll lose around $100 a week, but if you do it, I'll pay for your $550 a month BMW lease....why would I NOT take them up on that offer? The formula doesn't work.

P.S. The bold part...do not confuse make up the work with more hours. If 2 out of 4 servers call out sick, the other 2 bust their ass....the restaurant is still only open from 12-8 (just an example.)
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:00 PM   #37
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Workers now having more freedom and latitude as to where and how much/long to work rather than being effectively shackled to a single job, i.e., "Job Lock," simply for the sake of health benefits. I thought conservatives were all about "freedom," thus they ought to be applauding this expansion of job freedom. Or, are they more concerned about employers having the unwritten leverage of control of health care benefits to maintain more control over workers and their wages? Personally I think health care ought to be completely severed from employment.

Yes, workers may well freely opt to leave schitty, low paying jobs for better ones and thus, employers may have to make said jobs actually more appealing in and of themselves to those employees. It's been an "employer's market," if you will, for the past 20-30 years or so, as evidenced by stagnant real low-middle class wages and soaring upper class wages/wealth, perhaps time to rebalance this equation a bit more in favor of employees rather than devolving into some quasi-feudal society as is the current trajectory.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:02 PM   #38
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Workers now having more freedom and latitude as to where and how much/long to work rather than being effectively shackled to a single job, i.e., "Job Lock," simply for the sake of health benefits. I thought conservatives were all about "freedom," thus they ought to be applauding this expansion of job freedom. Or, are they more concerned about employers having the unwritten leverage of control of health care benefits to maintain more control over workers and their wages? Personally I think health care ought to be completely severed from employment.

Yes, workers may well freely opt to leave schitty, low paying jobs for better ones and thus, employers may have to make said jobs actually more appealing in and of themselves to those employees. It's been an "employer's market," if you will, for the past 20-30 years or so, as evidenced by stagnant real low-middle class wages and soaring upper class wages/wealth, perhaps time to rebalance this equation a bit more in favor of employees rather than devolving into some quasi-feudal society as is the current trajectory.
It saddens me your vote counts as much as mine does.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:31 PM   #39
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Workers now having more freedom and latitude as to where and how much/long to work rather than being effectively shackled to a single job, i.e., "Job Lock," simply for the sake of health benefits. I thought conservatives were all about "freedom," thus they ought to be applauding this expansion of job freedom. Or, are they more concerned about employers having the unwritten leverage of control of health care benefits to maintain more control over workers and their wages? Personally I think health care ought to be completely severed from employment.

Yes, workers may well freely opt to leave schitty, low paying jobs for better ones and thus, employers may have to make said jobs actually more appealing in and of themselves to those employees. It's been an "employer's market," if you will, for the past 20-30 years or so, as evidenced by stagnant real low-middle class wages and soaring upper class wages/wealth, perhaps time to rebalance this equation a bit more in favor of employees rather than devolving into some quasi-feudal society as is the current trajectory.
This statement just proves that you are just blowing smoke. Obviously those people "can't leave those sh!tty jobs and get better ones" since that is the reason why they had them in the first place.
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Old 02-06-2014, 08:56 PM   #40
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What precisely IS the reason they had them in the first place?
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