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Old 02-05-2014, 10:41 PM   #41
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A car bomb outside the NYSE or Chicago Merc would rattle some nerves.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:30 AM   #42
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Because AKs aren't that accurate. I find it highly unlikely that a coordinated group needing to hit a number of small targets quickly and accurately from those sorts of distances would choose the AK and the 7.62x39 as the platform to get it done. .308 makes much more sense
Interesting. Did you gather what range they were shooting from?

It does sound like they were shooting for a while. Maybe they were AKs after all, and they had to send out more rounds than Imperial Stormtroopers just to score one hit.
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:05 AM   #43
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:26 AM   #44
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:39 AM   #45
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hundreds of sites......bs............all terrorists have to do is blow up a major dam...(Hoover) or attack a nuclear power plant with an airplane or mortar rounds.

If a nuke plant leaked radiation in this country as a result....it would have devastating consequences on our economy ........we would be in a depression in a week. Millions might have to relocate (Chernobyl, Fukushima) trillions lost in the stock market...........and the public would DEMAND that all nukes be shut down....meaning........more coal would be used, more alternative energy sources like wind and solar would be used and energy prices would go up.

Who gives a crap about a power station ? Those were some ignorant terrorists. Any reasonable man knows that all they have to do is reroute power and then go to the supply room and get the parts to repair it........

Besides, an AK47 is unbelievably rookie territory. They had to be mentally challenged. All they had to do was throw some electrical wire over the lines and electrical parts of the power station and the wire could ground out opposing cables from the station. You get the same results without making a lot of noise and a weapons charge.

But, why don't we bury our lines under the ground and why have we not taken steps to protect ourselves against an EMP ? Canada has done it...


Anyhow, those terrorists were rookies..........

Seriously, if I was a terrorist and I wanted to wreak havoc on America, I would use some shoulder carried anti aircraft missiles against planes in America. If you shot down 2,3 on different days........all air travel would halt.

Attack oil refineries in Texas and Louisiana with a small bomb, and the fire would be devastating as well as raise prices for gas.

Attack a ship in the Mississipi and shut down barge traffic for several days.....ditto for Long Beach and other major port cities.

Attack a nuclear power plant........even if it is not totally destroyed and everyone would be scared.

There are a lot of things you could do to damage American confidence without a lot of people or money.
all of those are relatively secure areas.

an IED campaign against truckers on rural interstates, on the other hand...
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:43 AM   #46
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Because AKs aren't that accurate. I find it highly unlikely that a coordinated group needing to hit a number of small targets quickly and accurately from those sorts of distances would choose the AK and the 7.62x39 as the platform to get it done. .308 makes much more sense
substation transformers are pretty big. An AK is cheap and reliable, and ammo is cheap. Plus the AK has the instant image of "foreign terrorists", if you're looking to propagate that image. It's more than accurate enough to hit a substation transformer from 100 yards.
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Old 02-06-2014, 10:44 AM   #47
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Really only a dozen at a time is all that's needed to start the downward spiral, chaos and unrecoverable unwinding of society

Imagine 4-5 "Boston marathons" at once
Also, as a side note, I believe this transformer attack happened a few days after the Boston bombings.....where was the early signs of chaos?
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:40 PM   #48
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Interesting. Did you gather what range they were shooting from?

It does sound like they were shooting for a while. Maybe they were AKs after all, and they had to send out more rounds than Imperial Stormtroopers just to score one hit.
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substation transformers are pretty big. An AK is cheap and reliable, and ammo is cheap. Plus the AK has the instant image of "foreign terrorists", if you're looking to propagate that image. It's more than accurate enough to hit a substation transformer from 100 yards.
Well, they way I read it, they the shots came from outside the perimeter fence. Now, I dont have a map or a picture of the site. I think I may have found one below, but I'm not sure. My guess is that the shots were taken from beyond 100 yards, at night, through a barrier (the fence). It could have been more than 100 yards, but for the sake of argument, I'll go with that. They werent right next to the fence when firing.

They targeted coolant oil tanks on these things. Now I'm not sure how big those tanks are, so my speculation lacks a big piece of evidence. The average AK with average ammo will struggle to shoot 5-6MOA. Even I think that's generous. A really, really nice AK might get it down to 2-3 MOA with match ammo. For those not familiar with that term, a MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards. So an average AK will struggle to shoot 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards. That's with the ability to clearly see the target shot at through those sights and without worrying about a barrier in the way.

Now this is at night, so one of two things is the case. 1) bright lights illuminate the powerstation and the targets or 2) no light or very little light illuminates them.

If condition 1), the targets would be easier to see, but they'd have to shoot from farther away to avoid getting picked up by the security footage. Bright lights would light up the perimeter and surrounding area as well, giving away their position to cameras and responders.

In condition 2) they could shoot from closer to the fence, but hitting a target in dark or low light conditions is really difficult with shitty AK iron sights. That's not to say they couldn't have upgraded them, but I doubt it.

So look at the barriers to executing this. They only get a limited amount of time to execute their plan, they only get one chance, and they have to make difficult shots. Maybe you're right and they went in with an AK or two and just shot and shot and shot until they figured they hit the target they were hoping to hit (the oil tank, not the gigantic transformer) and bailed. Seems too amateur to me for a sophisticated, premeditated attack. There are too many possible failure points.

If I were planning that, I'd want a rifle that had a solid scope on it that I could clearly see my intended target from 100-200 yards. I'd also want a reliable and accurate cartridge to fire that would do the damage I needed. The 7.62x39 really isn't that cartridge in any platform. The 7.62x51/.308 IS that cartridge. In the right gun, taking out those targets from that distance, in that lighting, and through that barrier would be much easier and reliable.

Just my $.02 though

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Old 02-06-2014, 01:21 PM   #49
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Transformers on step-up substations are huge, and have huge cooling tanks/radiators to keep them cool. Imagine an auto radiator on a much larger scale, lots of surface area for cooling. The total footprint of a substation is generally not very big, and relatively open to allow access to everything for workers, and allow airflow for cooling. The area will be pretty well lit, since people will be in and out around the clock, and they need light for security cameras. The cameras are all oriented inward, according to the article.

It's very reasonable to think that a cheap off the shelf AK would be able to do the damage described in the article. I would be surprised if the shooters were even 100 yards away, they were probably much closer, since they didn't need to worry about being spotted on cameras.

The picture you posted is a power plant. A substation is much smaller. Note the radiator, steel colored, lower right of picture. Looking at it from one angle, you've got about an 8'x8' target to shoot at, and nothing protecting it but a chain link fence.
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:41 PM   #50
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Well, they way I read it, they the shots came from outside the perimeter fence. Now, I dont have a map or a picture of the site. I think I may have found one below, but I'm not sure. My guess is that the shots were taken from beyond 100 yards, at night, through a barrier (the fence). It could have been more than 100 yards, but for the sake of argument, I'll go with that. They werent right next to the fence when firing.

They targeted coolant oil tanks on these things. Now I'm not sure how big those tanks are, so my speculation lacks a big piece of evidence. The average AK with average ammo will struggle to shoot 5-6MOA. Even I think that's generous. A really, really nice AK might get it down to 2-3 MOA with match ammo. For those not familiar with that term, a MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards. So an average AK will struggle to shoot 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards. That's with the ability to clearly see the target shot at through those sights and without worrying about a barrier in the way.

Now this is at night, so one of two things is the case. 1) bright lights illuminate the powerstation and the targets or 2) no light or very little light illuminates them.

If condition 1), the targets would be easier to see, but they'd have to shoot from farther away to avoid getting picked up by the security footage. Bright lights would light up the perimeter and surrounding area as well, giving away their position to cameras and responders.

In condition 2) they could shoot from closer to the fence, but hitting a target in dark or low light conditions is really difficult with shitty AK iron sights. That's not to say they couldn't have upgraded them, but I doubt it.

So look at the barriers to executing this. They only get a limited amount of time to execute their plan, they only get one chance, and they have to make difficult shots. Maybe you're right and they went in with an AK or two and just shot and shot and shot until they figured they hit the target they were hoping to hit (the oil tank, not the gigantic transformer) and bailed. Seems too amateur to me for a sophisticated, premeditated attack. There are too many possible failure points.

If I were planning that, I'd want a rifle that had a solid scope on it that I could clearly see my intended target from 100-200 yards. I'd also want a reliable and accurate cartridge to fire that would do the damage I needed. The 7.62x39 really isn't that cartridge in any platform. The 7.62x51/.308 IS that cartridge. In the right gun, taking out those targets from that distance, in that lighting, and through that barrier would be much easier and reliable.

Just my $.02 though



Your point is well thought out, but I feel it is wrong in some areas. Being that the FBI and the Navy Seals trainers said it appeared to be a professional job.
Whose to say that these guys didn't spend a few months planning, training, and getting there equipment ready. Maybe they were on a budget as well. The AK is a great weapon at a cheap price, and pretty damn accurate coupled with an inexpensive scope. In round numbers lets say the average price of a decent AK is around $700. Add a $150 scope from Academy. Then add up $300 for 1 thousand rounds. Any .308 caliber weapon would be double if not triple the price of an AK. So these guys go out to a shooting range, supposing they don't know how to properly sight in their weapon, oh wait let me google that on my smart phone. It would take max an untrained sheep to sight in a weapon with a scope and the help with youtube, google, bing whatever, a few days to get that 5-6" Moa your talking about at 100 yards or Further. you have to realize an AK is pretty darn accurate within 300 yards, which is pretty far away when aiming at a big oil cooler at a electrical station.

Now I understand where your coming from, these guys seem like amateurs, in a sense. Maybe they want you to think that. We dont know exactly how their weapons were setup, But I HIGHLY doubt they were using iron sights.

just my .02 cents
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:45 PM   #51
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Seriously, if I was a terrorist and I wanted to wreak havoc on America, I would use some shoulder carried anti aircraft missiles against planes in America. If you shot down 2,3 on different days........all air travel would halt.
TWA flight 800?
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:51 PM   #52
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Seriously, if I was a terrorist and I wanted to wreak havoc on America, I would use some shoulder carried anti aircraft missiles against planes in America. If you shot down 2,3 on different days........all air travel would halt.
You'd have to hang out near airports trying to look non-suspicious with a shoulder-fired AAM...

You're not going to shoot down a jumbo jet at cruising altitude with anything in the current inventory.
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:51 PM   #53
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Your point is well thought out, but I feel it is wrong in some areas. Being that the FBI and the Navy Seals trainers said it appeared to be a professional job.
Whose to say that these guys didn't spend a few months planning, training, and getting there equipment ready. Maybe they were on a budget as well. The AK is a great weapon at a cheap price, and pretty damn accurate coupled with an inexpensive scope. In round numbers lets say the average price of a decent AK is around $700. Add a $150 scope from Academy. Then add up $300 for 1 thousand rounds. Any .308 caliber weapon would be double if not triple the price of an AK. So these guys go out to a shooting range, supposing they don't know how to properly sight in their weapon, oh wait let me google that on my smart phone. It would take max an untrained sheep to sight in a weapon with a scope and the help with youtube, google, bing whatever, a few days to get that 5-6" Moa your talking about at 100 yards or Further. you have to realize an AK is pretty darn accurate within 300 yards, which is pretty far away when aiming at a big oil cooler at a electrical station.

Now I understand where your coming from, these guys seem like amateurs, in a sense. Maybe they want you to think that. We dont know exactly how their weapons were setup, But I HIGHLY doubt they were using iron sights.

just my .02 cents
Saying these guys were pros seems to exaggerate their capabilities. One would have to determine what their intentions are. Does a substation provide the potential necessary to achieve their goals? Does an attack on the cooling tanks fit the criteria for success? How critical are they? Easily Recognizable? Easily Accessible? Is there any other piece of equipment that is more critical, easier to recognize, easy to access, easy to destroy and can provide the desired outcome?

Or was it some guy, or group of guys, that took a pop shot at the most visible piece of equipment at a substation?

I am not entirely familiar with all the components of power generation so it may be the most desirable piece to attack, or it may not.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:28 PM   #54
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Saying these guys were pros seems to exaggerate their capabilities. One would have to determine what their intentions are. Does a substation provide the potential necessary to achieve their goals? Does an attack on the cooling tanks fit the criteria for success? How critical are they? Easily Recognizable? Easily Accessible? Is there any other piece of equipment that is more critical, easier to recognize, easy to access, easy to destroy and can provide the desired outcome?

Or was it some guy, or group of guys, that took a pop shot at the most visible piece of equipment at a substation?

I am not entirely familiar with all the components of power generation so it may be the most desirable piece to attack, or it may not.
Not saying that. All I am saying is, it doesnt take a group of navy seals to pull off what they did. You plan your target accordingly, figure out what you want to hit, and execute. Its a pretty basic scheme of things. These guys probably figured out how to do everything from google. wake up people, its not that hard to figure things out these days with the power of the internet.

Lets not forget the terrorists in 9/11 learned how to fly a plane from Flight simulator. and that was in 2001.

The picture that the other David found of what "could" be the station probably is. And lets the not forget google earth. Theres a damn tape measure/distance finder on google earth.

The bolded underlined questions... I googled them myself exact wording from you adding electrical power stations. every piece of information you just asked is available publicly. whats the most critical part? i would say the cooling system, just like on a car. No cooling=No fun
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:30 PM   #55
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Not saying that. All I am saying is, it doesnt take a group of navy seals to pull off what they did. You plan your target accordingly, figure out what you want to hit, and execute. Its a pretty basic scheme of things. These guys probably figured out how to do everything from google. wake up people, its not that hard to figure things out these days with the power of the internet.

Lets not forget the terrorists in 9/11 learned how to fly a plane from Flight simulator. and that was in 2001.

The picture that the other David found of what "could" be the station probably is. And lets the not forget google earth. Theres a damn tape measure/distance finder on google earth.

The bolded underlined questions... I googled them myself exact wording from you adding electrical power stations. every piece of information you just asked is available publicly. whats the most critical part? i would say the cooling system, just like on a car. No cooling=No fun
the picture that he posted is a power plant, not a substation.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:34 PM   #56
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You'd have to hang out near airports trying to look non-suspicious with a shoulder-fired AAM...

You're not going to shoot down a jumbo jet at cruising altitude with anything in the current inventory.
The planes are pretty damn low around here, coming and going from JFK and LGA.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:36 PM   #57
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The planes are pretty damn low around here, coming and going from JFK and LGA.
pretty near two airports
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:37 PM   #58
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pretty near two airports
Even nowhere near the airports they are flying really low. I'm just saying the potential terrorist wouldn't have to be basically just outside the fence of the airport. These planes are flying low right over residential neighborhoods all day long.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:38 PM   #59
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Even nowhere near the airports they are flying really low. I'm just saying the potential terrorist wouldn't have to be basically just outside the fence of the airport. These planes are flying low right over residential neighborhoods all day long.
still doesn't change the fact that you're not shooting down a jumbo jet at cruising altitude.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:43 PM   #60
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still doesn't change the fact that you're not shooting down a jumbo jet at cruising altitude.
Does it not count if it isn't at cruising altitude? What is the range for a shoulder-equipped projectile with the current tech?
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