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Old 02-06-2014, 02:44 PM   #61
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shoulder fired AAMs are still in the "million dollar tech" range. Hard and expensive to come by, easy to track. If you want to launch a successful campaign in the US, you need to step down to radioshack tech. With a modest budget, you could set yourself up for a reasonably lengthy campaign from Home Depot. Truckers on rural interstates are your key. If truckers start refusing to drive, the majority of our material transportation system stops.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:52 PM   #62
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shoulder fired AAMs are still in the "million dollar tech" range. Hard and expensive to come by, easy to track. If you want to launch a successful campaign in the US, you need to step down to radioshack tech. With a modest budget, you could set yourself up for a reasonably lengthy campaign from Home Depot. Truckers on rural interstates are your key. If truckers start refusing to drive, the majority of our material transportation system stops.
That doesn't cause terror, though, people freak out of airplane crashes
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:55 PM   #63
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Does it not count if it isn't at cruising altitude? What is the range for a shoulder-equipped projectile with the current tech?
a top of the line SA-24 (Soviet) has a ceiling of 20k feet. Those are the brand new, highest tech ones. The base model stinger is about 14.8k feet, IIRC.

Also keep in mind you need to be sitting somewhere you know you'll be seeing large aircraft below that altitude. If you've got someone on the inside feeding you flight plans, you can back off from the airport a bit more, but if not, you're going to have to stay close to ensure success. You can't just park in a random spot in rural america and shoot at whatever is overhead.

AAMs are loud, once that second stage kicks in (assuming it's a two stage rocket, if not, you'll need to be in a pretty clear area to shoot it, no shooting from inside a vehicle or building), everyone within a mile of you is going to know something's going on.

Again, you want to really wreak havoc, step down to the $50 tech level.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:57 PM   #64
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That doesn't cause terror, though, people freak out of airplane crashes
you don't think fiery explosions of semi trucks on interstates and truckers refusing to drive will cause terror?

When the interstates shut down and everybody's like "nah, it's cool", let me know.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:57 PM   #65
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That doesn't cause terror, though, people freak out of airplane crashes
Terrorists have to balance dramatic impact vs political flavor vs cost effectiveness vs real-world outcomes.

It seems to me (thankfully) they often weigh dramatic impact much more than they probably should.

I can think of 3 or 4 different "attacks" that could be easily and cheaply staged in the US that would have a big, long-lasting impacts on us. But they typically lack the dramatic flair that terrorists seem to lust after.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:06 PM   #66
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btw, I think everybody needs to post their education/professional credentials on threat evaluation/red cell wargaming before this conversation moves any further.

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Old 02-06-2014, 03:22 PM   #67
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a top of the line SA-24 (Soviet) has a ceiling of 20k feet. Those are the brand new, highest tech ones. The base model stinger is about 14.8k feet, IIRC.

Also keep in mind you need to be sitting somewhere you know you'll be seeing large aircraft below that altitude. If you've got someone on the inside feeding you flight plans, you can back off from the airport a bit more, but if not, you're going to have to stay close to ensure success. You can't just park in a random spot in rural america and shoot at whatever is overhead.

AAMs are loud, once that second stage kicks in (assuming it's a two stage rocket, if not, you'll need to be in a pretty clear area to shoot it, no shooting from inside a vehicle or building), everyone within a mile of you is going to know something's going on.

Again, you want to really wreak havoc, step down to the $50 tech level.
I could imagine someone sitting on a rooftop in queens with a stinger. I wonder how many red flags this thread has set off at NSA lol
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:30 PM   #68
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Boston seemed to recover. It also had no effect outside of a relatively small geographical area. I was not impacted by the Boston Bombings. It did not threaten the existence of the US. Were the economic damages caused by Boston on a grand scale? What makes you think 4 or 5 would cripple the US?

Boston killed 3 individuals and the physical damage was confined to the blast location. As tragic as the bombings were they never had the potential to paralyze the United States. Even if you multiple by 5 you arrive at 15 deaths spread over a wide geographic area. More were killed in an elementary school and the US is still here.
It's not about the body count, it's about the people's reactions. 9/11 took out what, like 3000 lives? But this event changed the world forever.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:32 PM   #69
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It's not about the body count, it's about the people's reactions. 9/11 took out what, like 3000 lives? But this event changed the world forever.
the world??? or just the US?

Most other countries have had thousands of citizens die in terrorist attacks...
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:37 PM   #70
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the world??? or just the US?

Most other countries have had thousands of citizens die in terrorist attacks...
it changed the US.
The US then changed the world.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:40 PM   #71
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the world??? or just the US?

Most other countries have had thousands of citizens die in terrorist attacks...
The world. European airports are also much stricter now than they used to be before 9/11.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:54 PM   #72
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the world??? or just the US?

Most other countries have had thousands of citizens die in terrorist attacks...
Yes, it changed the world. Prior to, the response to aircraft hijacking was "wait for them to land somewhere, then negotiate". Now, it's "negotiate in the air, or shoot them down before they get to a population center"


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Old 02-06-2014, 04:00 PM   #73
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Not saying that. All I am saying is, it doesnt take a group of navy seals to pull off what they did. You plan your target accordingly, figure out what you want to hit, and execute. Its a pretty basic scheme of things. These guys probably figured out how to do everything from google. wake up people, its not that hard to figure things out these days with the power of the internet.

Lets not forget the terrorists in 9/11 learned how to fly a plane from Flight simulator. and that was in 2001.

The picture that the other David found of what "could" be the station probably is. And lets the not forget google earth. Theres a damn tape measure/distance finder on google earth.

The bolded underlined questions... I googled them myself exact wording from you adding electrical power stations. every piece of information you just asked is available publicly. whats the most critical part? i would say the cooling system, just like on a car. No cooling=No fun
Google is a good source for obtaining Intel and instructions. However it is no substitute for trade craft.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:02 PM   #74
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It's not about the body count, it's about the people's reactions. 9/11 took out what, like 3000 lives? But this event changed the world forever.
We are hardly talking about another 9/11.

The want a lot of people watching not a lot people dead is an expired way of thinking. Now they do want a lot of people dead. It demonstrates capabilities, gets you on TV, and attracts funding and recruits.

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Old 02-06-2014, 04:10 PM   #75
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shoulder fired AAMs are still in the "million dollar tech" range. Hard and expensive to come by, easy to track. If you want to launch a successful campaign in the US, you need to step down to radioshack tech. With a modest budget, you could set yourself up for a reasonably lengthy campaign from Home Depot. Truckers on rural interstates are your key. If truckers start refusing to drive, the majority of our material transportation system stops.
You can easily fix that situation by scheduling a RACE WARS out in the desert
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:23 PM   #76
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Explosives and bomb making (holy ****, I feel like this thread has already been flagged by the NSA) materials are highly regulated within the US. A sustained, multipronged campaign to terrorize rural highway truckers would be foiled pretty quickly. And you could crash a 747 into a nuclear plant and it would do jack **** (Google F4 crashing into wall).

The power grid is probably the most vulnerable piece of infrastructure we have precisely because it's a jumbled mess with very little redundancy. But it'd take a coordinated effort that would be way too hard for foreign elements to successfully pull off.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:51 PM   #77
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You'd have to hang out near airports trying to look non-suspicious with a shoulder-fired AAM...

You're not going to shoot down a jumbo jet at cruising altitude with anything in the current inventory.
I live a few miles form Dallas Ft Worth Airport....at least the way the crow flies.

There are two major airports in the Dallas area: DFW and Love Field. As well as a major airfield at a Joint Air Base in Ft Worth, previously known as Carswell AFB.

You could park your car in any one of 1000 strip malls or office parks and watch the aircraft fly into DFW, Love Field or Carswell. Or, one of another 10 or so municipal airports with shorter runways.

Park your car on route 114 and you can practically throw a rock at the jets coming in for a landing at DFW, flying just above stall speeds. They land 2,3 every minute during the day.

Similar places exist for Carswell and Love Field.

It would not be tough for a stinger.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:51 PM   #78
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Explosives and bomb making (holy ****, I feel like this thread has already been flagged by the NSA) materials are highly regulated within the US. A sustained, multipronged campaign to terrorize rural highway truckers would be foiled pretty quickly. And you could crash a 747 into a nuclear plant and it would do jack **** (Google F4 crashing into wall).

The power grid is probably the most vulnerable piece of infrastructure we have precisely because it's a jumbled mess with very little redundancy. But it'd take a coordinated effort that would be way too hard for foreign elements to successfully pull off.
Lol. Actually, lol to all of this, except the plane crashing and the power grid being vulnerable. Those shield domes on reactors are no joke.



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Old 02-06-2014, 04:53 PM   #79
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I live a few miles form Dallas Ft Worth Airport....at least the way the crow flies.

There are two major airports in the Dallas area: DFW and Love Field. As well as a major airfield at a Joint Air Base in Ft Worth, previously known as Carswell AFB.

You could park your car in any one of 1000 strip malls or office parks and watch the aircraft fly into DFW, Love Field or Carswell. Or, on of about another 10 or so municipal airports with shorter runways.

Park your car on route 114 or 121 and you can practically throw a rock at the jets coming in for a landing, flying just above stall speeds. They land 2,3 every minute during the day.

It would not be tough for a stinger.
You only want one attack? Go for it.


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Old 02-06-2014, 04:58 PM   #80
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I live a few miles form Dallas Ft Worth Airport....at least the way the crow flies.

There are two major airports in the Dallas area: DFW and Love Field. As well as a major airfield at a Joint Air Base in Ft Worth, previously known as Carswell AFB.

You could park your car in any one of 1000 strip malls or office parks and watch the aircraft fly into DFW, Love Field or Carswell. Or, on of about another 10 or so municipal airports with shorter runways.

Park your car on route 114 or 121 and you can practically throw a rock at the jets coming in for a landing, flying just above stall speeds. They land 2,3 every minute during the day.

It would not be tough for a stinger.
How many stingers in circulation are outside of US control? Operating a stinger isn't something the untrained can pull off in one shot. And it's not like one group has a stockpile reserved for training.

Not to mention most of proposed attacks don't seem to consider escape.

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