E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > General Off-Topic

General Off-Topic
Everything not about BMWs. Posts must be "primetime" safe and in good taste. You must be logged in to see sub-forums.
Click here to browse all new posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-06-2014, 05:08 PM   #81
Raymond42262
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The South
Posts: 453
My Ride: Is German
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
Explosives and bomb making (holy ****, I feel like this thread has already been flagged by the NSA) materials are highly regulated within the US. A sustained, multipronged campaign to terrorize rural highway truckers would be foiled pretty quickly. And you could crash a 747 into a nuclear plant and it would do jack **** (Google F4 crashing into wall).

The power grid is probably the most vulnerable piece of infrastructure we have precisely because it's a jumbled mess with very little redundancy. But it'd take a coordinated effort that would be way too hard for foreign elements to successfully pull off.


You don't need any kind of high tech plastic explosives. All it takes is nitrogen fertilizer purchased at farm supply stores, diesel fuel and an igniter. Ask
Timothy McVeigh and the people in Oklahoma.

You don't need to have a sustained effort to disrupt trucking. All it would take is 2,3 events spread over a week or a month in different parts of the country. All you have to do is create an atmosphere of fear and truckers will stop driving trucks. 2/3 of our food supply is delivered by trucks and we only have a 3 day supply of groceries on the shelves , assuming it is purchased under normal conditions, unlike hurricanes and snow storms.


A 737 or a 747 is slightly different than an F4. Some of those older jets like an F4 are not much larger than a large truck or a U Haul. Jumbo jets have their own zip code. Besides, you don't need to destroy the nuke plant. A deliberate effort to assault them would create enough fear to have them shut down. You don't need to destroy Americans, just put fear in them. If you fear some one, then they become emboldened , they recruit others because you are scared and they have already won half the battle without getting shot.
__________________
"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for."....Joseph Addison
--------------------
Raymond42262 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 05:19 PM   #82
Raymond42262
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The South
Posts: 453
My Ride: Is German
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiral Prophet View Post
it changed the US.
The US then changed the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stankia View Post
The world. European airports are also much stricter now than they used to be before 9/11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Yes, it changed the world. Prior to, the response to aircraft hijacking was "wait for them to land somewhere, then negotiate". Now, it's "negotiate in the air, or shoot them down before they get to a population center"


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app

If someone thinks 9/11 did not change the world, ask the people of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen or Somalia.

Have we assaulted anyone else that I have left out ?
__________________
"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for."....Joseph Addison
--------------------
Raymond42262 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 05:59 PM   #83
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
How many stingers in circulation are outside of US control? Operating a stinger isn't something the untrained can pull off in one shot. And it's not like one group has a stockpile reserved for training.

Not to mention most of proposed attacks don't seem to consider escape.
9/11 didn't consider escape, either.

It's one thing to prevent an attack where the attackers want to survive and escape. It's another thing to prevent one where the attackers intend to survive, but actually want to be captured. It's yet another thing to prevent an attack where the attackers plan to die, either all at once in the primary part of the attack (a la 9/11) or fighting to the death with whatever responders show up.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Stuff for sale in SoCal:

- Bestop briefcase

----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:01 PM   #84
Hobohunter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Richland, WA
Posts: 44
My Ride: 2003 325Ci
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Lol. Actually, lol to all of this, except the plane crashing and the power grid being vulnerable. Those shield domes on reactors are no joke.



Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
They are designed to withstand internal pressure from a loss of coolant accident but aren't rated for much external pressure. That being said, the concern from aircraft to most US reactors isn't that they'll breach the containment structure and cause a loss of coolant, but more that they'll breach the spent fuel pool and uncover the previously used fuel.
Hobohunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:08 PM   #85
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 504
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
9/11 didn't consider escape, either.

It's one thing to prevent an attack where the attackers want to survive and escape. It's another thing to prevent one where the attackers intend to survive, but actually want to be captured. It's yet another thing to prevent an attack where the attackers plan to die, either all at once in the primary part of the attack (a la 9/11) or fighting to the death with whatever responders show up.
Obviously. You think an attack on a power station a group would consider suicide as an option in a sabotage operation? There is a logic to suicide terrorism.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:18 PM   #86
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
Obviously. You think an attack on a power station a group would consider suicide as an option in a sabotage operation? There is a logic to suicide terrorism.
Depends on their beliefs. Guy shooting at coolant tanks from outside the fence? Probably wants to get away. Guy loads a pickup truck with a fertilizer bomb and crashes it through the chain link to blow it up deep inside the facility? Probably didn't make dinner reservations for later that night.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Stuff for sale in SoCal:

- Bestop briefcase

----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:22 PM   #87
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 504
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
Depends on their beliefs. Guy shooting at coolant tanks from outside the fence? Probably wants to get away. Guy loads a pickup truck with a fertilizer bomb and crashes it through the chain link to blow it up deep inside the facility? Probably didn't make dinner reservations for later that night.
Suicide operation to attack a non occupied facility. Someone doesn't understand suicide terrorism, its uses, and the value it provides to the organization using it.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:28 PM   #88
brew
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Central Oregon
Posts: 341
My Ride: Sequoia X5 MR2 G20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
If someone thinks 9/11 did not change the world, ask the people of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen or Somalia.

Have we assaulted anyone else that I have left out ?
How are Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen or Somalia are really any different from before 9/11? They were war-torn sh1tholes before and they are war-torn sh1tholes now.
brew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:35 PM   #89
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 504
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
Depends on their beliefs. Guy shooting at coolant tanks from outside the fence? Probably wants to get away. Guy loads a pickup truck with a fertilizer bomb and crashes it through the chain link to blow it up deep inside the facility? Probably didn't make dinner reservations for later that night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
Suicide operation to attack a non occupied facility. Someone doesn't understand suicide terrorism, its uses, and the value it provides to the organization using it.

I also recommend reading Pape's The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism. It studied suicide terrorism prior to 9/11 but it still a valuable source in understanding suicide terror today.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...60983673,d.cWc
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 06:46 PM   #90
Raymond42262
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The South
Posts: 453
My Ride: Is German
Quote:
Originally Posted by brew View Post
How are Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen or Somalia are really any different from before 9/11? They were war-torn sh1tholes before and they are war-torn sh1tholes now.
They have a lot of citizens that are dead as a result of American operations, either directly or indirectly.

But yeah, the entire ME is an armpit.

I don't understand why the ME and third world wants to destroy the West. You'd think that they would learn from our 3500 years of civilization and use it to develop their own societies.
__________________
"The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, someone to love, and something to hope for."....Joseph Addison
--------------------
Raymond42262 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 07:23 PM   #91
Act of God
E46Fanatic
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 333
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Dear NSA,

I love America! I promise I will buy a shiny new Corvette, don't arrest me
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

"The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." October 23, 2010, not January 20, 2009
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 10:04 PM   #92
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
Suicide operation to attack a non occupied facility. Someone doesn't understand suicide terrorism, its uses, and the value it provides to the organization using it.
As JJ indicated (just in case NSA is snoopin' round here), it's less about 1 guy than 20 guys with 20 trucks spread around the country hitting 20 substations at the same time.

One relatively ineffective suicide bomber is a nutjob. A whole cadre of relatively ineffective suicide bombers is a nightmare, which is exactly what they're willing to sacrifice themselves to be.


FWIW, I just typed what could be done with 20 guys that would be absolutely crippling IMHO. But I deleted it because I just can't publish something like that. Yeah, a thousand people have thought of it before me, and I'm not letting any cat out of any bag. But it is what it is.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Stuff for sale in SoCal:

- Bestop briefcase

----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2014, 10:07 PM   #93
Zell
Registered User
 
Zell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Such City
Posts: 5,627
My Ride: '02 Dogemobile Shibe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
As JJ indicated (just in case NSA is snoopin' round here), it's less about 1 guy than 20 guys with 20 trucks spread around the country hitting 20 substations at the same time.

One relatively ineffective suicide bomber is a nutjob. A whole cadre of relatively ineffective suicide bombers is a nightmare, which is exactly what they're willing to sacrifice themselves to be.


FWIW, I just typed what could be done with 20 guys that would be absolutely crippling IMHO. But I deleted it because I just can't publish something like that. Yeah, a thousand people have thought of it before me, and I'm not letting any cat out of any bag. But it is what it is.
Oh the NSA be snoopin around here.
__________________
Zell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 07:06 AM   #94
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 504
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcelratr View Post
As JJ indicated (just in case NSA is snoopin' round here), it's less about 1 guy than 20 guys with 20 trucks spread around the country hitting 20 substations at the same time.

One relatively ineffective suicide bomber is a nutjob. A whole cadre of relatively ineffective suicide bombers is a nightmare, which is exactly what they're willing to sacrifice themselves to be.


FWIW, I just typed what could be done with 20 guys that would be absolutely crippling IMHO. But I deleted it because I just can't publish something like that. Yeah, a thousand people have thought of it before me, and I'm not letting any cat out of any bag. But it is what it is.
Sorry this post makes no sense. A group of 20 guys or X amount of guys will have many problems to overcome that your grassroots operator is unlikely to consider. Tradecraft doesnt come with numbers it comes with training.

And the second part regarding suicide bombers is incorrect. Read Pape's article. There isnt much that I would say that already isnt within the article. Suicide terrorism isnt about sabotage. It is about punishment and killing people.

As far as your scenario, thats good that you have an imagination. I am sure 20 guys can do many things. However, I am sure your scenario is full of holes, fallacies, and things you didnt consider that would have an impact on whether the operation is a success or a failure.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 07:45 AM   #95
GasKing
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: East Coast
Posts: 603
My Ride: 14 Jeep Wrangler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
hundreds of sites......bs............all terrorists have to do is blow up a major dam...(Hoover) or attack a nuclear power plant with an airplane or mortar rounds.

If a nuke plant leaked radiation in this country as a result....it would have devastating consequences on our economy ........we would be in a depression in a week. Millions might have to relocate (Chernobyl, Fukushima) trillions lost in the stock market...........and the public would DEMAND that all nukes be shut down....meaning........more coal would be used, more alternative energy sources like wind and solar would be used and energy prices would go up.

Who gives a crap about a power station ? Those were some ignorant terrorists. Any reasonable man knows that all they have to do is reroute power and then go to the supply room and get the parts to repair it........

Besides, an AK47 is unbelievably rookie territory. They had to be mentally challenged. All they had to do was throw some electrical wire over the lines and electrical parts of the power station and the wire could ground out opposing cables from the station. You get the same results without making a lot of noise and a weapons charge.

But, why don't we bury our lines under the ground and why have we not taken steps to protect ourselves against an EMP ? Canada has done it...


Anyhow, those terrorists were rookies..........

Seriously, if I was a terrorist and I wanted to wreak havoc on America, I would use some shoulder carried anti aircraft missiles against planes in America. If you shot down 2,3 on different days........all air travel would halt.

Attack oil refineries in Texas and Louisiana with a small bomb, and the fire would be devastating as well as raise prices for gas.

Attack a ship in the Mississipi and shut down barge traffic for several days.....ditto for Long Beach and other major port cities.

Attack a nuclear power plant........even if it is not totally destroyed and everyone would be scared.

There are a lot of things you could do to damage American confidence without a lot of people or money.
Idk what you're talking about officer.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
Exitus acta probat
GasKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 09:57 AM   #96
rapier7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ATL
Posts: 78
My Ride: Subaru BRZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond42262 View Post
[/B]

You don't need any kind of high tech plastic explosives. All it takes is nitrogen fertilizer purchased at farm supply stores, diesel fuel and an igniter. Ask
Timothy McVeigh and the people in Oklahoma.

You don't need to have a sustained effort to disrupt trucking. All it would take is 2,3 events spread over a week or a month in different parts of the country. All you have to do is create an atmosphere of fear and truckers will stop driving trucks. 2/3 of our food supply is delivered by trucks and we only have a 3 day supply of groceries on the shelves , assuming it is purchased under normal conditions, unlike hurricanes and snow storms.


A 737 or a 747 is slightly different than an F4. Some of those older jets like an F4 are not much larger than a large truck or a U Haul. Jumbo jets have their own zip code. Besides, you don't need to destroy the nuke plant. A deliberate effort to assault them would create enough fear to have them shut down. You don't need to destroy Americans, just put fear in them. If you fear some one, then they become emboldened , they recruit others because you are scared and they have already won half the battle without getting shot.
You're kidding yourself if you think US authorities don't regulate nitrogen content in fertilizer now.

The country has changed since 9/11. I'm not saying that the government is capable of thwarting every attack, but it is capable of keeping a lid on organized attacks that require coordination across the country, especially if they require explosives.

Really, if terrorists wanted to make a splash, all you need is 4-5 gunmen storming a mall or stadium with kevlar and semi-automatic rifles. You could easily kill a bunch of civilians before any government could effectively respond.
__________________
http://meta-rhetoric.com - Unfiltered Reality
rapier7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 10:13 AM   #97
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,287
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
You're kidding yourself if you think US authorities don't regulate nitrogen content in fertilizer now.

The country has changed since 9/11. I'm not saying that the government is capable of thwarting every attack, but it is capable of keeping a lid on organized attacks that require coordination across the country, especially if they require explosives.

Really, if terrorists wanted to make a splash, all you need is 4-5 gunmen storming a mall or stadium with kevlar and semi-automatic rifles. You could easily kill a bunch of civilians before any government could effectively respond.
Wander around the gardening section in Lowe's. Or at an actual farm supply store. Don't want hassle buying fertilizer with a lot of nitrogen? Buy a farm.

You don't need a widespread nationwide campaign. Just target a specific stretch of interstate with a lot of truck traffic. Security will beef up along there, traffic will slow down. Pick up shop, move elsewhere.
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 10:26 AM   #98
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 504
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by rapier7 View Post
You're kidding yourself if you think US authorities don't regulate nitrogen content in fertilizer now.

The country has changed since 9/11. I'm not saying that the government is capable of thwarting every attack, but it is capable of keeping a lid on organized attacks that require coordination across the country, especially if they require explosives.

Really, if terrorists wanted to make a splash, all you need is 4-5 gunmen storming a mall or stadium with kevlar and semi-automatic rifles. You could easily kill a bunch of civilians before any government could effectively respond.
This. The nitrogen content in fertilizer is regulated. And rapier is correct with regards to thwarting attacks. Which is why Inspire--AQs English magazine--has called for smaller attacks.

And rapier's last point stands as well. Look at Mumbai and the Kenya mall shootings. Which btw, if you study the video you see people doing nothing. Best options are movement, distance, angle, cover, concealment. The most important thing is to move. Surveillance video showed many people just standing around. Either struck by fear or an unwillingness to believe what was going on. Perhaps both.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 10:53 AM   #99
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,287
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
or go buy tannerite, it's the same thing
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2014, 11:16 AM   #100
Xcelratr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: So Cal - 310
Posts: 958
My Ride: 04 330Ci ZHP
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
Sorry this post makes no sense. A group of 20 guys or X amount of guys will have many problems to overcome that your grassroots operator is unlikely to consider. Tradecraft doesnt come with numbers it comes with training.

And the second part regarding suicide bombers is incorrect. Read Pape's article. There isnt much that I would say that already isnt within the article. Suicide terrorism isnt about sabotage. It is about punishment and killing people.

As far as your scenario, thats good that you have an imagination. I am sure 20 guys can do many things. However, I am sure your scenario is full of holes, fallacies, and things you didnt consider that would have an impact on whether the operation is a success or a failure.
Just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it makes no sense.

Believe what you wish.
__________________
----------------------------------------------
Stuff for sale in SoCal:

- Bestop briefcase

----------------------------------------------
Xcelratr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use