E46 BMW Social Directory E46 FAQ 3-Series Discussion Forums BMW Photo Gallery BMW 3-Series Technical Information E46 Fanatics - The Ultimate BMW Resource BMW Vendors General E46 Forum The Tire Rack's Tire Wheel Forum Forced Induction Forum The Off-Topic The E46 BMW Showroom For Sale, For Trade or Wanting to Buy

Welcome to the E46Fanatics forums. E46Fanatics is the premiere website for BMW 3 series owners around the world with interactive forums, a geographical enthusiast directory, photo galleries, and technical information for BMW enthusiasts.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   E46Fanatics > Everything Else > The Off-Topic > Political Talk

Political Talk
You may discuss anything regarding politics in this forum ONLY. If you cannot respect others opinions, your access to this forum will be removed.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-14-2014, 11:22 PM   #41
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
When weighing civil rights vs property rights, which are more important?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
For me personally...civil rights are paramount when talking about person vs government. Once you talk about people vs people, private property rights are #1 since that is what lets us go into our respective corners. People have a right to do what they want with their own home, their own business, and their own life...provided it does not HURT (physically or environmentally) anyone else. Emotional distress is far too vague to pass laws. Just like right to work...a business owner has the right to serve anyone they want, and patrons have the right to keep it moving and go elsewhere if they don't like the business. A business with bad policies, especially in today's age with the internetz will fail, and fail quickly.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 11:34 PM   #42
Marshmallow
Yacht Club Libertarian
 
Marshmallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: South Joisey, Mid MI
Posts: 2,012
My Ride: E46, E30, Quattro
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Also popularly sanctioned, and ended through legislation.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
So because people supported slavery and segregation that is a failure of the free market? Looks like I've finally got you backed into a corner with no ammo left.
__________________


2003 BMW 325xiT "Audrey"
1987 BMW 325i "Lydia"
1990 Audi 90 Quattro Sport 20v "Chloe"

Marshmallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 06:33 AM   #43
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,386
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
So because people supported slavery and segregation that is a failure of the free market? Looks like I've finally got you backed into a corner with no ammo left.

Wat? I'm just asking where the all-powerful free market was when those things were going on. Why has the free market just come around now to decide that discrimination is a bad thing? Why wasn't it figuring this out twenty, thirty, a hundred years ago?

I'm still wondering where you're getting the idea that I want more laws from. Can you answer that one?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 07:05 AM   #44
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Wat? I'm just asking where the all-powerful free market was when those things were going on. Why has the free market just come around now to decide that discrimination is a bad thing? Why wasn't it figuring this out twenty, thirty, a hundred years ago?

I'm still wondering where you're getting the idea that I want more laws from. Can you answer that one?


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
If I understand him, he is refuting your statement by saying that it wasn't free market because of government laws. One could even argue that racism is responsible for building up the African American communities. They were not allowed into white churches, so they built their own. They were not allowed into white restaurants, so they started their own, and black owned businesses took off. The same could be said about music, theater, etc. Fast forward to today, very few businesses would operate this way. Sure some podunk redneck town in Alabama might have a few hicks that run a bar that don't want colored folks or dem Jews in there, but honestly, who cares? Who the f*** wants to go there? Would you want to go to a place where you aren't wanted? i sure as sh!t wouldn't. I remember hearing a comedian (forgot who it was, but he was black) that used to say that he MUCH prefer open racism as opposed to mumbled. A sign saying no blacks please is more pleasant than no sign, and when you go in there, you get treated like dirt. At least with a sign, you know whats going on and can make an "educated" decision...and not patronize the business.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 07:41 AM   #45
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,386
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
The point is that the free market is good at picking what is profitable, not necessarily what is just.

The free market is only as perfect as the people participating it. When people manage to achieve perfection, I'll agree that pure unregulated free market is achievable and the right way to go. Until then, governance will always be necessary.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 07:45 AM   #46
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
The point is that the free market is good at picking what is profitable, not necessarily what is just.

The free market is only as perfect as the people participating it. When people manage to achieve perfection, I'll agree that pure unregulated free market is achievable and the right way to go. Until then, governance will always be necessary.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
There's your problem. Justice is something served by the government. Laws do not make people just (unless you want to hinder free speech.) If I hate blacks or jews, no law is going to change my mind. You seem extremely convinced that government can somehow make people equal, civil, etc, which is ludicrous. Things like affirmative action (government messing around in private business) or the fake war on women crap are the reason why many companies don't hire blacks or women, or disabled people, etc. It's not worth dealing with the political BS.
__________________

Last edited by NFRs2000nyc; 02-15-2014 at 07:45 AM.
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 07:49 AM   #47
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,386
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
So justice should be thrown out the window in favor of the almighty dollar?

You're thinking way too narrowly when you're looking only at discrimination.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 07:50 AM   #48
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,386
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Besides, shouldn't you two be celebrating this thread rather than lamenting the poor oppressed majority? This thread is about less legislation.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:12 AM   #49
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
That's YOUR OPINION.
Mine and others. What now?

MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:12 AM   #50
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
So justice should be thrown out the window in favor of the almighty dollar?

You're thinking way too narrowly when you're looking only at discrimination.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
Again, I am against discrimination on a national scale, and mostly with the government. However, when it comes to private individuals, you cannot force them to like someone they don't. If I own a deli, I might only want to hire italians. I can tell blacks "the position has been filled" and fly under the radar, just like its done countless times today. You cannot legislate social justice, it doesn't work. Some companies pride themselves on being diverse, some want to be black owned and operated, etc. Chinese food places only have chinese, etc etc. What do you mean when you use the word "justice"? You seem to be under the impression that it is "injustice" for one person to hate another person based on their race. Racist, bigot, sure, but not unjust. I guess you really love your government and find it effective at curing the ills of society.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:14 AM   #51
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow View Post
So because people supported slavery and segregation that is a failure of the free market? Looks like I've finally got you backed into a corner with no ammo left.
Did the free market put an end to slavery in the US? Nope.

Last edited by MDydinanM; 02-15-2014 at 08:14 AM.
MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:15 AM   #52
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Besides, shouldn't you two be celebrating this thread rather than lamenting the poor oppressed majority? This thread is about less legislation.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
I have no problem with civil unions, I personally don't think they go far enough, so Im not sure what youre trying to say. There are certain aspects of homosexuality that I don't agree with in terms of politics (like removing mom and dad from school materials) but as far as two private individuals, I have no problem with that.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:16 AM   #53
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
Did the free market put an end to slavery in the US? Nope.
Hypothetical for you....if we abolished slave laws today, do you think we would have slavery in the US (today?)
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:23 AM   #54
MDydinanM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 754
My Ride: is a ///M
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Hypothetical for you....if we abolished slave laws today, do you think we would have slavery in the US (today?)
That's a good question. Frankly, we're in a different era now with a different line of thinking, what constitutes human rights, etc.

But, in the absence of such laws, who knows. It's not something I would want to "test" and find out. Slavery, or servitude, still exists in the world today -- even if supposedly not in the US today (unless you're a female Indian "diplomat" that got caught ). Regardless, these laws still provide the legal framework (teeth so to speak) to prosecute people that would commit such acts, and perhaps serve as a deterrent.

Last edited by MDydinanM; 02-15-2014 at 08:37 AM.
MDydinanM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:32 AM   #55
NOVAbimmer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 12,386
My Ride: 14 Impala FXST M796
Judge deems Virginia’s same-sex marriage ban unconstitutional

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Hypothetical for you....if we abolished slave laws today, do you think we would have slavery in the US (today?)

Do you think we don't have slavery in the US today?

But yes, if slavery were legal in the US today, I absolutely guarantee that there would be slaves. You might not see it, but the practice would expand. Why? Because it would be profitable.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
__________________

Last edited by NOVAbimmer; 02-15-2014 at 08:37 AM.
NOVAbimmer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:46 AM   #56
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOVAbimmer View Post
Do you think we don't have slavery in the US today?

But yes, if slavery were legal in the US today, I absolutely guarantee that there would be slaves. You might not see it, but the practice would expand. Why? Because it would be profitable.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
I think we have rampant slavery today, but I believe the government is the slaveowner, keeping people enslaved with various debt, and overwhelmingly minorities in inner city precincts. Again, sure some hicks might keep a slave or two in a barn somewhere, but on the whole, the general public would never stand for it....at least I hope so. If you don't then I guess your view of the populace if far grim-er than mine.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:49 AM   #57
Act of God
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NY
Posts: 334
My Ride: 3.5 Liters of fury
Send a message via AIM to Act of God
Slavery is alive and well, even in the USA

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/23/ny...pagewanted=all

It just occurs with people from outside cultures
__________________
Gold Medal Recipient: Jimmy Rustling (2014)

“They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.” - Saul Alinsky, quoting Lenin
Act of God is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:51 AM   #58
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDydinanM View Post
That's a good question. Frankly, we're in a different era now with a different line of thinking, what constitutes human rights, etc.

But, in the absence of such laws, who knows. It's not something I would want to "test" and find out. Slavery, or servitude, still exists in the world today -- even if supposedly not in the US today (unless you're a female Indian "diplomat" that got caught ). Regardless, these laws still provide the legal framework (teeth so to speak) to prosecute people that would commit such acts, and perhaps serve as a deterrent.
Oh, I don't disagree. Hell, Dubai was built on slave labor, and human trafficking is a lucrative business. But on the whole (speaking of Americans)...I think they are good people, and wouldn't stand to see another person being enslaved (in the real sense). We're slightly digressing, but I personally truly believe that discrimination in the business world would not be a problem. Sure there will be a few idiots, but on the whole, most people still still do the right thing....as they always do.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 08:56 AM   #59
badfast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Northern Korea
Posts: 526
My Ride: A Car
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFRs2000nyc View Post
Hypothetical for you....if we abolished slave laws today, do you think we would have slavery in the US (today?)
Depends. We could go on about slavery and how it does still exist (via human trafficking, prostitution, etc). From the conversation I gathered the conversation is regarding black labor slavery. In today's age I would say no but not completely. Outliers will always exist. But it is irregardless if the laws today would prevent modern day slavery. They were designed to solve an issue in the past. Without a law a government has no recourse. Slavery was an issue that was not going to go away especially in the South. The free market cannot always correct a social injustice. Even when the rest of the Western world turned against slavery the pressure applied to the US didnt cause the US to slow down its own slave trade. Slavery in the South would not have ended without government intervention, it was too profitable. Same can be said regarding modern day prostitution via human trafficking. A market exists for it and it is profitable. I am sure we can all agree that human trafficking is wrong. Without laws against it there is little chance it will go away on its own. Laws give government the ability to intervene where the free market doesnt. Will laws stop human trafficking 100%? No nor can you expect it to. It is also not always about prevention. Laws provide the government the ability to extract revenge on behalf of its citizens.
badfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2014, 09:10 AM   #60
NFRs2000nyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 904
My Ride: 2003 FormulaRedS2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by badfast View Post
Depends. We could go on about slavery and how it does still exist (via human trafficking, prostitution, etc). From the conversation I gathered the conversation is regarding black labor slavery. In today's age I would say no but not completely. Outliers will always exist. But it is irregardless if the laws today would prevent modern day slavery. They were designed to solve an issue in the past. Without a law a government has no recourse. Slavery was an issue that was not going to go away especially in the South. The free market cannot always correct a social injustice. Even when the rest of the Western world turned against slavery the pressure applied to the US didnt cause the US to slow down its own slave trade. Slavery in the South would not have ended without government intervention, it was too profitable. Same can be said regarding modern day prostitution via human trafficking. A market exists for it and it is profitable. I am sure we can all agree that human trafficking is wrong. Without laws against it there is little chance it will go away on its own. Laws give government the ability to intervene where the free market doesnt. Will laws stop human trafficking 100%? No nor can you expect it to. It is also not always about prevention. Laws provide the government the ability to extract revenge on behalf of its citizens.
I don't disagree. I also don't disagree that there are times/instances where the government needs to step in. No argument on that. However, this discussion in my eyes is not really parallel to slavery. Social discrimination IMHO is not nearly the same, especially when we weigh it against private property rights. As we all know, bigotry exists, period. No amount of laws are going to make southern hicks like blacks, the skinheads love jews or arabs, the black panthers love whites, etc. Racism and bigotry IS part (one can argue an important part) of any modern society, especially one as diverse as the US. I guess I personally feel that a person should have the right to hire, fire, and serve anyone they want in their business. Generally speaking, any business that does participate in active discrimination will fail. Some like the christian wedding only bakery may succeed, but again, if you were gay, would you want them baking your cake? The bigotry (just like during the times of segregation) would also open up new markets (gay wedding cake makers, etc).

Another ironic aspect of discrimination laws is the conflict with the first amendment. A business owner can't discriminate against blacks right? But he can walk around the business saying "I hate blacks, blacks are the devil, foosball, etc." The effect would be the same. Word gets out the owner is a bigot, and the business dies (Paula Deen is an example.) I just don't think people can get away with this sh!t anymore. Personally, I serve a lot of customers, and generally speaking, black customers are my best ones. My biggest problem is eurotrash, followed by the old jewish park avenue hags, but that's anecdotal. If we had no discrimination laws (I employ people from 33 countries the last time I did a tally) I would never discriminate customers....well, maybe the french...I hate the bloody french.
__________________
NFRs2000nyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Censor is ON





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
(c) 1999 - 2011 performanceIX Inc - privacy policy - terms of use