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Old 02-15-2014, 01:33 PM   #81
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That's a good question. I don't think you can write a law, or enforce a law that states "thou shall be a good parent".

Now turning it the other way, how will the free market make for better parenting?
The free market has no responsibility to your kids, but it can encourage you to be a better parent so that your children succeed in this world.
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:34 PM   #82
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I think you might wish to speak to some black survivors of the Jim Crow south before pushing forth that assertion. Seems the reality was considerably less sanguine than your more simplified "free market" abstractions. It took other societal elements beyond simple market forces to bring about greater social and economic justice.
So the free market failed because of a government law?
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:39 PM   #83
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I think you might wish to speak to some black survivors of the Jim Crow south before pushing forth that assertion. Seems the reality was considerably less sanguine than your more simplified "free market" abstractions. It took other societal elements beyond simple market forces to bring about greater social and economic justice.
Clarence Thomas disagrees with you.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:14 PM   #84
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The free market has no responsibility to your kids, but it can encourage you to be a better parent so that your children succeed in this world.
I agree with you, but, like I said Free Market can't do it alone because there are other variables to consider.

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Old 02-15-2014, 03:24 PM   #85
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Well, given the current variables...poor parents raise poor kids (poor I mean bad, not money), poor kids can't work, end up criminals, get killed or locked up. Vicious cycle. Thats the current "solution." I think entitlements perpetuate this, as quite often we provide MORE entitlements for having more kids. Personally, I think backing off some entitlements would help. I also think that child entitlements should never be in the form of money/EBT. It should be vouchers that can ONLY benefit the child....certain foods only, daycare, school supplies, whatever. It should have a name on it to make sure it cannot be sold and if it is NOT used the fund gets cut off. A work requirement for the parents should also be created, and a minimum one at that. It should be a very difficult and damn near unpleasant thing to have kids if you can't properly care for them.
Yeah, no doubt, for some, entitlements have unintended consequences, but I still think they are necessary for those in dire need. It's those that abuse such programs that ruin it for the deserving. Perhaps a blend of entitlements, enforcement, restrictions, and incentives would be better. Then again, I don't have the answers to a complex societal problem.

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As to the freemarket, well, like you said earlier, no such thing as a purely free market, but if we're just spitballing....there will be some pain. Parents without entitlements will end up on the street with their kids in tow. You will see this all over the country. It will scare a lot of people straight as the problem is visible and unpleasant. Over time, this problem will subside from a combination of shaming, clear visible evidence of what happens, etc. We can agree people (young people especially) often forget the consequences of actions, but seeing a homeless teenage mom everyday will remind people. Obviously all speculation, but like I said, spitballing.
Perhaps there needs to be free market principles that instills in people to strive for better, complemented by legislation that invests in infrastructure, education, social programs (e.g. good parenting classes )

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Old 02-15-2014, 03:30 PM   #86
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I agree with you, but, like I said Free Market can't do it alone because there are other variables to consider.
And like I said, this isn't about parenting and either way the free market has no responsibility to your children.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:30 PM   #87
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I am one of the biggest proponents of equal rights for everyone but take for example, laws about discriminating against gays, that's not something I would support. I don't think people should discriminate but it's not something that should be regulated.
So how do you propose to have the entirety of society care about the rights of an unpopular individual or group?

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And I do not fault them for that. That people do believe that argument and its validity in denying equality is what I find laughable.


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I'm not proposing we find a way to end racism. People can do that on their own time. But the free market will take care of any discriminating businesses.
No, it won't. That's simply a naive statement to make in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:41 PM   #88
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So how do you propose to have the entirety of society care about the rights of an unpopular individual or group?







No, it won't. That's simply a naive statement to make in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
What is your proposed solution to a problem that has been brought up to draw attention away from our previous problem? You can't regulate against discrimination. Much of the country has supported gay rights and marriage for years yet it's still not possible to get gay married in over half of the states. Government!
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:53 PM   #89
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What is your proposed solution to a problem that has been brought up to draw attention away from our previous problem? You can't regulate against discrimination. Much of the country has supported gay rights and marriage for years yet it's still not possible to get gay married in over half of the states. Government!
Yes, you can regulate against discrimination. You cannot legislate people's feelings and opinions, but you can legislate actions and behaviors.

You torpedo your own point. It's only recently that the idea of gay marriage has gained enough popularity that it's starting to be recognized. The concept of having market forces control everything relies on actors within the market that are moral, fair, informed and not hypocritical. That unfortunately is not the case. Which is why the free market had no problem for decades and decades limiting the civil rights of gays.
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Old 02-15-2014, 03:58 PM   #90
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So if I understand your point correctly it's that the free market is responsible for everything that is wrong with the world. Am I correct?
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:23 PM   #91
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So if I understand your point correctly it's that the free market is responsible for everything that is wrong with the world. Am I correct?

You really are a rock aren't you?




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Old 02-15-2014, 04:23 PM   #92
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So if I understand your point correctly it's that the free market is responsible for everything that is wrong with the world. Am I correct?
You are not correct.

The free market is responsible for neither all that is wrong, nor all that is good with the world. The same can be said about govt.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:25 PM   #93
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And you really differing opinions.

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You are not correct.

The free market is responsible for neither all that is wrong, nor all that is good with the world. The same can be said about govt.
When have I said that free market is responsible for all good things? It's a natural force not a governing body.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:29 PM   #94
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When have I said that free market is responsible for all good things? It's a natural force not a governing body.
I didn't claim you said that.

What you did say is that the free market will take care of any discriminating businesses. That's not correct.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:32 PM   #95
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I didn't claim you said that.

What you did say is that the free market will take care of any discriminating businesses. That's not correct.
That it will. And I'm not the only one who agrees. NFR laid it out perfectly earlier.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:32 PM   #96
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So the free market failed because of a government law?
No, governmental/judicial intervention was required because the free market was unable and insufficient to, and thus failed to, address these broader, deeper social (justice) issues.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:35 PM   #97
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Clarence Thomas disagrees with you.
I'm sure he does, which I take to be a resounding endorsement of my point.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:36 PM   #98
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That it will. And I'm not the only one who agrees. NFR laid it out perfectly earlier.
When will it happen?
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:43 PM   #99
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And you really differing opinions.
1) What are your thoughts on how a lot on here whose political views are left, right, and center disagree with your "opinion" and think you're naive, ignorant, and live in some fantasy world?

2) What are your thoughts on how a lot on here whose political views are left, right, and center think you're a buffoon?

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Old 02-15-2014, 04:48 PM   #100
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You are not correct.

The free market is responsible for neither all that is wrong, nor all that is good with the world. The same can be said about govt.
This ^

The free market itself is essentially amoral, not moral or immoral. It's raison d'etre is maximization of profit and self-preservation. If moral, or immoral, precepts and actions further those endpoints, then fine, they may be applied incidentally so long as they further those ends.

To ascribe an inherent morality to the free market in and of itself is at best naive. That comes from broader society that seeks to tame and utilize the free market for its own health and preservation.

A free market is a component/subset of a broader society, an important and vital one but one that ought to be in service to that society rather than the other way around as many on the right/libertarians seem to imagine it.

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